@Sentient Meat it is not the first time you mention it, but honestly, I have a hard time believing you are this older dude who has watched basketball for decades, as you claim. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but some of your takes strike me as the ones usually presented by exactly the opposite of what you claim to be - very young fans. Just to mention your posts on this page alone - Shaq's game was not "not aesthetically pleasing"? I seriously can't imagine anybody who was already a fan during our threepeat who would say something like that with a stright face. "Kobe is loved by younger generations" is just plain wrong. I don't have the data to back it up, but I am 100% certain if you made a poll around BB fans, Kobe would be much more appreciated by the older folks than Harden. Toughness, killer instinct, good to great defense vs "smart" basketball (or as I like to call it cheating the system) - us older folks grew up watching the guys who excelled in the categories represented by Kobe, not Harden. Anyway, I am not trying to call you out or attack you. Everybody is welcome on this forum and you are vey active and have made your presence felt without being aggressive and even though I disagree with your takes more often than not, it's great to have you here. Many of your posts just seem odd considering the things you claim about yourself. I may be wrong, but if you're not really a Lakers fan or just a young person, admitting it won't put you in a worse position on this particular board - we are like a huge, diversified family here . And to stay on topic, please let me express my sincere LOL at any mention of Haren as an all-time great in any other category than "guys who destroy all that's good about basketball".
fell apart at the last line. we have no way of knowing this because harden came out of the womb getting favorable whistles. also, you're ignoring his obvious (and well-documented) chicanery, which kinda says something about your angle. kobe and mj weren't grabbing defenders' arms to "draw fouls". it's an embarrassment. and it's why no matter how hard the press pushes harden, fans can't warm up to him. his gaudy numbers belie his actual talent level.
I walked away from his quotes. Too bizarre for me. Your take is exactly what I think, though it is hard for me to be as charitable. Better off I don't interact. I am hoping if I have him blocked that he can't see me either. ?????
Thanks for the polite response Samson. Yes sadly I am older, but I think you misunderstand some of things I said. Shaq for me is like Mike Tyson, while maybe a Kobe would be more like Mayweather or Ali. Just sheer power. Doesn't mean I didn't love him while he was here... just means I think his play was a function of being dominant physically moreso than skill. Maybe you find that aesthetically pleasing... I found it thrilling but aesthetics... not so much I also think Kobe is more skilled than Harden What I meant by my comparison is that I don't have a blind love for Kobe because I've watched even West and Chamberlain play at the end of their careers. What I mean is if you are older and have seen a lot of generations... you aren't as attached to those twenty years which I liked but not as much as Showtime or the West era. So what I meant by Harden is that he's scoring at an unprecedented pace at an efficient TS% that isn't as beautiful as Kobe, but gets the job done like Shaq. Appreciate your welcoming comments despite our differences. I don't get people who block others on a forum with only a few dozen hardcore posters The idea should be trying to encourage more to join, rather than not interacting with one of the few who are here. But I suppose if my thoughts are that irritating to some... it's better for them not to upset themselves by reading contrarian views.
It's a fair point about the cheating. If you hold to that principle even when your own team does it then I can't argue against it. I don't like some of blown calls, but isn't that what the new challenge rule is for? I didn't mind LouWill when he played for us... I think drawing fouls has been around since the dawn of the NBA If there are changes to be made, it's on the NBA to correct it... maybe even give him a technical or disqualification if he's caught going too far.
i'd have real trouble rooting for harden. i've never disliked a player more, i don't think. and it's because he's made a mockery of the sport. you blame the league, and they're certainly partially culpable, but the fact that he exploits it so shamelessly just doesn't buy my admiration. if he tried to call those fouls on the playground, he'd get popped. kinda like bruce bowen walking under shooters. he built his career on some garbage that isn't and was never intended to be part of the game. worse, he's infiltrated the media psyche to the point where new fans of the game are told that drawing fouls is an elite skill. imagine if everyone decided to play like harden and was officiated like that--is that what you want? so how can you support harden in any way? i get it for houston fans, but if you're not a houston fan, i really question your knowledge and/or love of the game. because he's not playing it. i like the term someone used a few months ago: he plays lawyer ball...well...technically...it's not a travel...well...technically, legal guarding position is entirely subjective and could be construed as "being in harden's way". so...no. can't pull for him. can't appreciate his game, even, because i'm not sure how good he'd be if people weren't afraid to breathe on him. because those step backs don't actually go in that often.
Harden's TS when he played with Russ and KD in OKC was an ungodly 66%. He came into the league an awkward looking, almost nerdy dude, without much hype. It's not like he was Zion or LBJ... the chosen one. The NBA didn't have any dog in the hunt to make The Beard a star... that came later. He used his craftiness to become the most dominant scorer since Wilt. I agree he should be penalized when he cheats. I respect that you hate him... I don't like the cheating either... However, I find if you hate a player, it's almost always because they are really good. So, sure I'd welcome him on the Lakers... but I also agree with you that they need to cut down on the flopping. Maybe he wouldn't be averaging 39 right now... but he'd still be scoring 30 to 35.
SM A case can be made for Kareem, Magic or Kobe as being the greatest Lakers ever. Who did not love and thrill to Showtime if you were a sentient Lakers fan during that glorious run. The 3 best years of the Kobe, Pau and Lamar teams a close second. Totally get what you say about how Shaq played and Tyson fought. And of course the Shaq / Kobe teams. Kobe gets my nod as greatest Laker because of his sheer mastery of the game and playing through injuries throughout his career that no one probably could imagine. Drilling 3s with a frickin splint on his shooting hand. Foregoing a tendon forever in one hand so he could play the season and leaving everything he had on the floor every single night. Badly sprained ankles rarely stopped him or a torn shoulder. He was 2nd only to MJ in my personal opinion because of Mikes superior even to Kobe’s athleticism and his huge hands. But Kobe had him and probably anyone who ever played the game on his complete mastery of ALL the skills and footwork, plus the insane fall back Js from deep.
Respect but I cannot unsee Magic leading the Lakers to victory with Kareem injured playing center against Dr. J as a ROOKIE. Happily my feelings towards GM Magic are fading because I'm remembering Magic the way I want to and forgetting the horror of his front office moves.
his ft rate was always insane, too. but the nba got a dog in the hunt when he got traded from a small market laden with brighter stars to a huge market that had none. the implication that i hate him because he's good is kinda silly. i like lots of good players. you ever hear me trash giannis? AD before he was a laker or rumored to be? even lebron, pre-lakers? i also hate mediocre-to-bad players, like patrick beverly. the common thread is that i like good basketball, and no level of TS% is going to convince me that harden plays it. as for your calculations, all you're doing is subtracting ill-begotten fts. but what about the confidence those buy you? what about the way teams have to play defense (such as sliding with their damn hands behind their back to prove a point to officials that his first step isn't actually all that devastating) to adjust for the biased officiating? but ultimately, i can't abide people defending the crap he pulls. again, it makes me question why that person watches at all. if you drove into a retreating player in a pickup game, grabbed his arm--or even simply tucked yours under his--and then flailed the ball at the rim...would you end up with points? would you get picked up on the next run? would you be respected by your fellow competitors? so why glorify this horse s***? and why defend him? you can't do it on the court, and you can't do it here, either. only one of those is because it's impossible.
No, I didn't mean you specifically... I'm saying the sign of any good player is often one who is hated We haven't hated many players recently other than our own because we haven't been competitive for six years. You only hate players when they get in your team's way. Hate's a strong word... maybe annoyance is better. This isn't a case of the Astros stealing signs and signaling their players beating drums... if it were so easy then every player in the league would do what Harden and LouWill do. Again, I hope they regulate it, but whether it's widening the key because of Wilt's length, or banning dunks in the NCAA because of Alcindor, it's usually someone special who affects an actual rule change.
I was talking about you comparing disgusting James freaking no defense Harden to Kobe Bryant one of the greatest all around both sides of the ball and the most skilled player of all time. I have him 2nd only to Mike as greatest ever because of that. Whatever.
really don't think this argument holds water, despite its frequent usage. people don't grab defenders' arms because they get called for it. that's why they don't do it. people don't shove retreating defenders with their off-arm on all drives because they get whistled for it more often than not. also, it may take amazing dexterity to to grab someone's arm and pull them in a way that the officials don't recognize--but that doesn't make it a basketball skill! all skills are not equally relevant at any time. if i could move a pool table with my mind to make all of my shots go in, does it mean i'm great at pool? without respect to rules or, more importantly, the spirit of the game, sports become pretty meaningless. i think rooting for harden is basically sports nihilism. i can forgive it for houston fans because really, what choice do they have? i can forgive it for casual fans who have never watched a game. but for the bloggers and media folks and hardcore fans who actually watch entire games because they like basketball? nah, don't get it. he doesn't play honestly. just because you can doesn't mean you should, and again--this is a big part about why people like sports in the first place. if you want to see people bend the rules and cleverly cheat to gain advantages, there are all sorts of venues in which you can root for them--or be them--in real life. sports should be safer from it. when they're not, i'm out. and harden's ascendance has pushed my interest down, tbh.
Abeer you are talking about a sport where almost everyone needs to be a genetic freak to excel at it. No one complains when a 7 footer with 7 foot 9 wingspan eurosteps his way to dominance or Shaq overwhelms everyone with his freakish power but you take offense at an average size man who levels the playing field? When Refrigerator Perry used to ram one yard runs in from the red zone, coaches simply had to find a new way around this. I agree it's not pretty, but the game itself is inherently unfair to the average person. It's not soccer or baseball. The Beatles were average musicians but way more popular than guitar virtuosos Jimmy Page or Eddie Van Halen because they were brilliant songwriters. My point is there's more than one way to skin a cat, and right now Harden is doing it. You admire Kobe from a purist's standpoint and that is a fair way to approach it... but this game isn't gymnastics or diving with style points. If you find a way to get the ball in the hoop more than the other person you win, and if you don't like it then you go to the commissioner's office or accept it.
Level the playing field, bush league, cheating, call it what you will. It's funny that you use the gymnastics analogy, a sport that is all about knowing exactly what the judges are looking for and designing a routine specifically catered to the judges/refs.
I agree it's cheating what Harden does and it should be stopped. My retort is no one feels offended when a heavyweight is fighting a bantamweight. Basketball is basically about being born with an unfair vertical advantage. If it were fair... there would be an under six foot league, under six foot four league, and an under six foot eight league. It's fun to see the winners of the genetic lottery slam on a shorter man, but not fun to see an average sized player find a way to dominate?
SM, the magnificence of all the great Lakers you cheered for and the way they ALL played the game does not compute with defending this piece of basketball bleep how he goes about playing (only offense, no defense) the game in his cheating, disgusting fashion .... much less bringing him onto this historic franchise. But hey you be you here.
wait what? harden's 6'5" 240! with a freakish wingspan. and even if he were small, this isn't a defense of cheating. no idea where you're attempting to go, here.
