Tada whether he scores 15/0/0 or 0/4/5 is pointless because it's equally terrible. He is supposed to be a friggin star. He should average 15/8/8...we don't want moral victories. I don't care if he tries hard or is active on defense. 0/4/5 is terrible, PERIOD. That's the bottom line. And it's not a really rare occasion for him, it is a regular line. Maybe not zero but 4,5,6 points, no aggressiveness, no communication, no nothing. He has led the Lakers only twice in assists this season. Never led in rebounds or scoring I believe. 8,4,5 on 39% shooting ...is borderline scrub numbers. Nobody said he lost the game. Many were poor especially on defense I assume. But the expectation isn't that he doesn't lose the game, it's that he be a friggin reason we win the game and he simply isn't. Once again... We don't know what he will be just yet. We do know he is nowhere near where we want him to be. And he shows more red flags than flashing star potential. Anything else is based on fiction rather than facts. DJ Augustin has 22 and 7, lonzo has 0 and 5. That's not good by any means.
Kidd's career numbers are 12.6/6.3/8.7 per 36 minutes. Those are superstar PG numbers that never played alongside another ball-dominant player like Lebron. If you are expecting 15/8/8 from Lonzo, then you're going to have to wait till Lebron retires because even CP3 is averaging 7 assists sharing the ball with Harden. And his usage rate is much higher than Lonzo. Lonzo played 28 mInutes last night and he should have had at least 2 more assists if Kuzma hadn't fumbled and bricked layups at the rim. Watching the game, I honestly had the impression that Lonzo played well, especially on defense. Didn't even notice that he was scoreless to be honest. Yeah he only took 5 shots, but Ingram and Lebron had it going on offense. Context, subtleties, and overall impact are more important than stats to me.
Comparing stats for Kidd makes no sense to me honestly. Kidd averaged those numbers when teams scored 80, 90. Now teams score 130. Also Kidd played in an era where conventional PG play was passing, defending, p&r play and driving. It was different and Kidd was good at what was asked of him. Today that's not the job discription of a PG. He must be an offensive presence. Today you have to be able to shoot, lead a team offensively, break defenses down, score, be dynamic, be good at p&r, etc. Look at the best PG in the NBA... All great offensive players. .. Curry, Westbrook, Lillard, Walker, Wall, even Paul etc. All big time offensive players or at least guys that demand the ball. Guys that are aggressive, guys that have sick handles. Guys that embrace game winners. Guys that want to make their presence felt. I know that's not Lonzos game and that is OK, to an extent. I don't expect 25 ppg. But that doesn't mean he gets a pass by being a black hole on offense and riding coattails. He is more like Elfrid Payton than those guys. Paul would've 20+ppg player but he is 34, can't expect him to adjust anymore. It's not about scoring x points. It's being the playmaker, demanding the ball and making plays. Lonzo isn't that and that's not OK for a modern PG. He is also an overrated passer/playmaker here. He is amazing at hitting 60 feet outlet passes or moving the ball without hesitation, without overdribbling, he is great at that stuff in transition. But when it comes to making plays in half court sets... Breaking defenses down, running through screens, making great p&r passes or bounce passes etc he is average.
The per100 possession stats do bear out what KB is saying a bit. Lonzo as rookie: 14-10-10 (excellent); Kidd as rookie: 18-11.5-8 (better scorer, better assists). Kidd topped 13 assists per 100 possessions eight times in his career. Ball's down at 8 this season.
Kidd played from 1994 to 2013. In those 19 years the average NBA score is 97.3 pts. In the past 2 years, the average is 106 pts. That's less than 10%, or less than 1 point for Lonzo/Kidd. Says who? So legends like Kidd, Stockton, Nash and Payton would all be scrubs and ineffective in "today's" NBA? I have to disagree. And the only player on that list that has won squat is Curry. And he's the best shooter in history playing with 3 HOFer's. Score-first PG's are just a trend. Doesn't seem to be the recipe for winning unless you are breaking records like Curry. I disagree. See above. Yes, he makes winning plays. That's what I see. No one on our team, including our resident superstar seems capable of hitting FT's consistently. But I'm not excusing him either. It's definitely part of his game that he needs to contInue to work on. He made an amazing PnR pass with Lebron last night. And great passes to Kuzma too. Not sure if we're watching the same player because Lonzo is an elite passer.
If you don't see Lonzo making winning plays and thus helping us win games, you need to see your ophthalmologist. Had you said, he doesn't do it consistently, you'd get no argument from me, aside from reminding that he is 21. In his sophomore season. Playing with LeBron (which none other dudes you so eagerly bring up had to do)
Thanks. So Kidd around the same age was a slighter better scorer and passer. He also logged more steals. Lonzo has slighty better rebound and block numbers. And turns the ball over much less. They seem pretty similar to me.
I'll make sure to bump your post in due time when the Lonzo era takes a definitiv turn. Don't get mad at me when I'll have a field day.
I knew this is what LB would be like. In other news, Kuz was the personification of trash last night and not a single post in that thread. Zo will be the scapegoat for every loss if he isn’t hitting 3-5 threes. It’s also the same impatient people each time. And if you’re tired of hearing that he’s a 21 year old in his 2nd year, then maybe that’s on you for having over the top reactions after every game.
18 vs. 14 points is 126% higher. I'd be very careful how I interpret these numbers. Let's look at the numbers. Ball's 279th in points per 100 possessions this season. Kidd was 212th as a rookie (he jumped to 22.3 pp100 in his second season). Ball is 35th in assists per 100 possessions this season. Kidd was 11th as a rookie (he jumped to 13.0 ap100 in his second season). Lonzo is 144th in rebounds per 100 possessions. Kidd was 152nd as a rookie (he jumped to 9.2 rp100 in his second season). (I wouldn't say Ball is a better rebounder per 100 - not through their first two seasons.) Do you want blocks on this list? I'm not sure it matters much from PGs, but... Lonzo is 285th in blocks per 100 this season. Kidd was 191st as a rookie (he probably declined in year 2). Ball is 121st in TO per 100. Kidd was 14th. If you're looking for an area where Ball clearly has the advantage, that's it.
I should never have ventured into this thread. High expectations can make our experiences of a player excruciating.
Kuzma is a 27th pick player coming off the bench. Lonzo is a #2 pick and was supposed to be the star of this team. I don't know if you guys can put things into context, because they aren't judged by the same standard, at least for me. I love how everyone brings up other names of other playere. This thread was created for Ball. Whether Kuzma is trash or not, you are free to complain in his thread and deal with his fans. Lonzo doesn't have to hit 3-5 threes. Lonzo has to be a productive basketball player and an up and coming star. If you are happy, I'm glad you are. I'm not Happy with his tragectory and I'm certainly not going to let a few here bully any criticism to his game. Accept the fact that your opinion isn't necessarily everyones opinion. We differ for good reasons. Some people see things differently. My opinion is that he was garbage. That's my opinion, right? Can I have that or do I need your or tadas or Zenmasters permission? As you said people will bash Lonzo for every bad game... It happens like 3 times a week. Believe me, it would be different if Ball had a good game every once in a while.
Hold on, are we comparing their rookie seasons or Kidd's rookie season vs Lonzo's 2nd season? I think it's impossible to assess Lonzo's season based on 15 games, having to adjust to Lebron. And it's 14.2 vs 17.5 pts, or closer to 123% higher to nitpick
@KB24 of course you are entitled to your own opinion but you didn't watch the game, and I feel it's a bit irresponsible to call him garbage just based on stats. He makes tons of plays that don't show up on the stat sheet, and watching the game he was one of our better players last night.
Fair enough. I didn't see the game as I said right away. I just based my opinion on the box score as disclaimed. I expected us to have a trap game in Orlando. I'm sure we had many terrible players because we lost to a bad team. To me I mainly care about Lonzo, LeBron and Ingram along with Hart, Kuzma, Wagner and now McGee as a guy I hope we keep. LeBron is too hard to criticize as an all time great. So I get only mad at the other keepers,none of them as important as BI and Zo. These guys must be held accountable and if they aren't for the long haul they need to be gone quickly. Hart is great most of the time and average some of the time and bad very few times. Kuzma is a 50/50 for good or bad. McGee has by far exceeded expectations. Remains BI and Lonzo. If these guys aren't playing well that's a HUGE problem. Our goal was signing 2 stars and developing at least 1 if not 2. This looks increasingly unachievable and that's why we are watching these guys with more attention than the others. Out of all of our young guys Lonzo is the most toothless one right now. He is also the ONLY guy worse/ not better in his 2nd year compared to their first. Ingram is trailing too but not to the extent that Ball is. Regressing or not progressing at 21 is worrisome. Guy's that are rentals, I really don't blame or care because they are playing for themselves rather than the Lakers. As a matter of fact... Signing Rondo is proof that the Lakers aren't completely sold on Lonzo, otherwise his playing time wouldn't regress and Rondo wouldn't be the starter to start the season. Lonzos injury is a reason but the Lakers at no point said Lonzo is our starter if healthy. He came to the starting lineup thanks to the suspension and was kept there because he was good the first few games before being the ol good Zo.
I agree that Lonzo and Ingram are key pieces. I'm not sure how much Ingram has improved yet, but Lonzo has not regressed. His main criticism was his body and shooting, and he has addressed both during the offseason. He looks stronger and quicker. His shooting is better across the board. He's obviously not where we want him to be, but he's heading in the right direction. He's still as good a passer, decision-maker, rebounder, and defender as he was last year. As for signing Rondo, I'm sure the FO wants to bring Lonzo along slowly. They hope to accelerate Lonzo's growth with Rondo being his mentor. Lonzo is the better player at this stage of their careers though.
For sure the gift and the curse, kuz that is why one was a #2 while the other was a #27 pick. Sometimes expectations make us look the hater, but that's not the intent. For most of us giving Bron a pass during the regular season (like myself)... just wait for the playoffs for our claws to finally come out. If dude doesn't come correct during the most important time of the year, all the bad defensive showings and unclutch moments that we have "filed" away during the regular season will be used against him. The expectations is that Bron earns that check in May through June....of course he has to help us get to that point, but our ire ain't dire till the straits of making it to 9 straight begin. Zo, as a #2, a transcendent player as Rob presented him to us and as the 2nd coming as LaVar presented to us, has "slightly" different expectations to meet than Bron haha...but in his 2nd year we expected a little more than what he's given us so far in this young season. We only want the best for the kid, but criticism comes with the territory of our expectations for dude. I'm not bothered by being scoreless and I understand defense (lack there of) is certainly a team wide issue...but in the highlights tada presented, in terms of defensive lapses, Zo needs to own up to alot of it as well. I admittedly missed the game, but 4:3 in ast:TO and playing the 2nd most minutes last night, he was a -9 while the guy he was responsible for ran amok...yuck! He's gotta do better in a game that he knows the microscope is on him after 'Do went out. Do better today kid, otherwise the klaws will be coming (or traded) for ya.
