We'd trade Deng because according to Pincus, the cost is right in the wheelhouse for what we need and he's literally the worst case scenario for our cap situation. As for the rest: I'm highly against asking guys or expecting guys to take less than their max. We as a franchise have proven that's not our MO either (Kobe's massive extension after a serious injury). There's little chance that the Lakers would approach LeBron/George with anything less than max expectations financially. We could present them with a dozen scenarios that would help if they took less, but it's just not something I would ever expect from them. And let's say that was the case: why not trade Deng and ask them to take less? As long as trading Deng doesn't cost us Ingram or Ball, all options should be on the table. Recently we've found out that the Cleveland pick/2020 1st/2 2nds/Zubac would be enough to move Deng, that's a no brainer. You move Deng and now two max slots open up AND an extra 3 million (you can get to around the Room Exception if you waive Bryant). You add two max guys and a veteran just to hit the Cap. You add Lopez with the Room Exception. You give Julius a solid paycheck (doesn't have to be max, but can be more than his market value as a show of good faith). We're at something like 114 million even if we give Julius 20 million dollars, that's not a luxury tax team. You could have: Lonzo/3-4 mil vet George/Hart Ingram/vet LeBron/Kuzma Randle/Lopez/vet without paying luxury taxes for at least a year or two.
^ ?? Lonzo/3-4 mil vet/Caruso George/Hart Ingram/vet/Wear LeBron/Kuzma Randle/Lopez/Frye/Bryant ...whoever is backing up Ball has to be a really reliable point.
I'd really like the Frye add. The one thing I'd want is a veteran with some playoff experience off the bench. Again, maybe IT is that guy for a year? Who knows, but we could really use a veteran who has been around the block to help keep things steady on the bench. I'd definitely want to bring Bryant and Wear back, Caruso would be a fine 3rd stringer.
Given that personnel, Thomas will not be back or asked back. After that chaotic mix with James in Cleveland, I would think the Lakers will not revisit that. Thomas is very vocal about everything. James will be enough to lead. Too many cooks in the kitchen... With that prospective team line-up, it would be an attractive landing point for any vet to fill in as subs for Ball and Ingram even if they have to take less than their market value...
True maxes for top 3 FAs: Bron (35.6) George (30.4) Jules (25.4) = roughly 91M Projected cap is 101, but some cap pundits think its a bit higher. So lets assume its 103M. You're looking at 12M before you hit the cap, which is about what BI and Zo make together. Our starting lineup is 100% of the cap. Judging from this year, we already know and should expect a vet PG to backup and help spell Zo minutes so we need to address that with the MLE (non-tax or tax depending on our cap situation). Frye looks like he's down to come back for the vet min and hopefully BLo is down to come for the Room exception. Hart (1.7), Kuz (1.7), Frye (2.1), BLo (4.8), MLE PG (5.4 - 8.8) = 15-19M. Our team salary is 118-122M with the luxury taxes projected to be anywhere from 119-121M. The hard cap comes in at around 126-129M. With all that said, this doesn't even consider the salary that is coming back in the Deng dump and whether we will use it or stretch it for a lower cap hit (for example Deng to Chicago for Asik and then we stretch Asik at around 4.5M as opposed to 7.4M.) Zo/Mle PG George/Hart BI/Kuz Bron/Frye Jules/BLo Decent depth, but that second unit really doesn't spell Bron effectively and judging from this year, there's alot of potential injury there. Now consider Jules at 15M as opposed to the max. Bron at 30M as opposed to his max. PG in an opt in and trade @20.7M as opposed to his max. You're looking at opening up roughly 25M in cap space and then even using Deng in a trade to bring in a lesser bad contract to help round out the roster so that you can use the MLE at other places of need. Obviously I'm not suggesting that we draw a line in the sand during the summer when it comes to playing hardball with free agents, but if we can get them to shed some of their cap hit, it will enable us to really round out the roster and make a legitimate push for a title from the jump.
I'm not with your numbers here. My team's salary after trading Deng and adding two maxes: LeBron- 35.7 (35% of 102) George- 30.6 (30% of 102) Randle- 12.5 Lonzo- 7.5 Ingram- 5.8 Kuzma- 1.7 Hart- 1.7 Bryant- 1.4 Min Cap Holds- 99.9 million If we choose not to bring back Bryant, we're at 99.1 million which leaves us the 3 million I was talking about. The room exception is expected to be 4.5 million. I already said we wouldn't have to give Julius a full max offer. Something like 4/80 million would be plenty so I drew the line there. The starting year salary for that would be roughly 18 million. LeBron- 35.7 George- 30.6 Randle- 18 Lonzo- 7.5 Ingram- 5.8 Lopez- 4.5 vet PG- 2.9 Kuzma- 1.7 Hart- 1.7 Bryant- 1.4 min cap holds- 1.8 Total- 111.6 million Even if we added Frye (1.7), Caruso (0.9), and Wear (0.9) instead of the minimum cap holds, we're at 113.3 million. That's well beneath the luxury tax threshold which will be at or near 120 million. And when it comes to percentages going towards certain players, there's nothing we can do about that. If we want two max guys, we should be willing and able to spend max salaries. That's fair to those players. If we can trade for George, I'm all for it as that would mean another 11 million in possible player depth, but the team above is completely attainable at a reasonable cost and with great depth.
Real, I'm saying true max deals for Bron, George and Jules is about 90% of our allotted cap space. I prefer a deep team, not a top heavy team and that is why its not moot that we simply fit in Bron and George and match ANY offer for Jules. Jules at the max means he's a dead man walking out of LA. Its not sustainable in the long run to pay all 3 dudes top dollar. I prefer that all 3 shave some off the top and with Jules, he's proven far less than the other 2 so he should be the first to take a haircut. You can better round out the team if money is shed off their contracts and if Mintz/Jules was ready for a 12M extension, that is the number you start with for obvious reasons...not to mention the cap structure and his rookie status dictate that starting price point (ie 12.5M cap hold). Jules is a 7th pick overall that had a bum wheel that kept him red shirted till his sophomore year. Curry is a 7th pick overall that had bum wheels that limited him during his junior season. Curry re-upped at 4 years/44M after his rookie contract and in year 1 of that contract made 9M. I understand that the league pays "bigs" on average more than guards....but Curry at 9M in year 1 of his extension after averaging 23 points, 7 assists and 4 rebounds in his contract year coming off ankle issues that limited his junior campaign is not disrespectful, but offering Jules 12M is? Some folks around here are so willing to just throw out money without understanding the implications that it is depth and overall team health that will lead to titles. GS is constantly brought up as the model for our youth, but all those dudes had team friendly deals and were relatively healthy during their title runs. Meanwhile LaBron had to face those teams with Ky and Love on the rack and then later faced that team with Durant added to the roster, while Klay, Curry, and Dray were still on team friendly deals after the cap bubble of 2016. It is not moot to just throw out money cause we can. The endgame is not #2018Plan...its #17andbeyond. You lock up our FAs this summer, but still with every intention to protect their health and longevity by adding depth. You can't do that if you throw maxes at everybody. There is precedence in that LaBron with every "Decision" summer he had has sacrificed off his true max. George looks like he's willing to partner up and sacrifice money as long as he finds a permanent home for his family. So if those 2 dudes are willing to sacrifice, then Fandles need to understand that their guy isn't being disrespected in getting a modest bag. 12-15M is fair for the "accomplishments" that Jules had contributed to our organization. Its actually laughable to offer him more.
I'm gonna break up the responses just to make sure I get all your points in vash. I'm not trying to max Julius and I'm doubtful anyone will give him a max, but if that's what it takes to keep him I do it as long as I can pull the trigger on the two max deals. If we have to pay those three that kind of money, so be it. We'll use them as long as we can and then we'll figure it out later. Those three together along with a quickly developing Ingram and an already competent Lonzo is enough for me to pay what I have to pay. Eventually the piper will come asking for his pay and we'll figure it out when we have to. Until then though, we have a roster where even if we maxed Julius, we're below the luxury penalty which is the real number to be concerned with. I agree we start there this summer, but as an RFA we don't have much choice. It's all on Julius and how much he trusts this organization to take care of him after we make our moves. If he signs a contract early in the summer, it's possible the Lakers lose him for nothing in favor of George/LeBron. Hopefully he doesn't do that. Well first of all, I never said that offer was insulting to Julius. In fact the report that says he would have taken a 12 million dollar per year extension pretty much disproves the insult. Second of all, the Curry comp is a pretty good one. The problem is, the year Curry signed that deal was 2013/2014 when the cap was at 58.7 million, so that deal at the time was actually a large chunk of the cap. The deal had an average annual salary of 11 million which at the time was more than 17% of the cap and would today be worth roughly 19 million. I would argue that Curry when he signed that deal was better than Julius is now (Warriors won 47 games the year before the extension kicked in and 51 games the year it started) so maybe Julius settles in the 15-17 range which is what I was hoping for a couple pages ago. I feel like many here are more informed on cap space than in other places I've seen, but I understand your point. I'd love if our guys and the guys we're adding decided to take paycuts, but I'm just not going to count on it. I wouldn't outright ask them to do it either, that's their choice and if they want their full amount, I respect them for that. If they want to sacrifice a bit, I'll respect that too, but I won't expect it of them. It's moot to me because we can field that team without paying luxury taxes. The luxury tax is the only prohibitive measure for a great team and unless we're winning titles, we shouldn't be eager to go above that threshold for long periods of time and incurring the repeater tax. I understand fiscal responsibility just fine as I spend a good amount of my time on this site blowing off work where I could be earning money and instead creating scenarios for the Lakers' success. I'd be okay maxing out Julius if we got the other two maxes because the team would be substantially better, ridiculously better even. I'm not eager to pay Julius that much, but if that's what it costs, then that's what it costs. Of course, I'd prefer to trade for George to keep his salary lower for a year and of course it'd be great if LeBron signed for 30 instead of 35 million, but I'm not going to plan for that. That would require them to have the same sort of devotion to the Lakers and to each other that we have and the truth is most players don't. They want to take care of themselves and their families first and foremost and I understand that completely. Julius could take 25 million and go home to Dallas with his wife and son and if he does, I won't blame him for it. I'm not going to expect LeBron, the best player of his generation, to take less even though I'd love for him to do it. The way my team is set up we can absolutely throw maxes at two or more players this summer (preferably two) and still be set up long-term with Ingram, Ball, Kuzma, and Hart not due for extensions for 3-4 years. It's a dream scenario where we can have depth as well as competent veterans now. Where in the team that I built is there no depth? We've got Hart, Kuzma, and Lopez off the bench. They started large chunks of this season and have won 30 games doing so. That's a heck of a bench. That doesn't even include a veteran PG either. The team I've built is plenty deep and plenty talented and has versatility going forward for at least 3 years before things get hinky financially. I don't think it's laughable to offer him more simply because we've seen worse deals get thrown out all the time. Otto Porter Jr. got a max offer from Brooklyn. Allen Crabbe got a massive offer from Brooklyn. All bets are off with RFA and given how teams hate our guts, it's entirely possible Randle gets an above market offer in RFA. As for LeBron and George taking cuts, like I said, it would be nice but I won't expect it and I don't think the Lakers will either.
He's only getting 3 million right now so it's definitely possible. And weren't we close to signing him?
Yes, but he wanted a starting job at the time. Every time the subject of a back up point guard is broached...Ramon Sessions comes to mind. Is he even viable? Is he signed long term? Nevertheless...I reckon there is always one out there that would fit the bill. Can't be Ennis for sure.
I'm not directing my ire against you Real. Just using your post as a jump off as to the narrative of 12-15M for Jules being insulting. I brought up Curry cause he took up 13.85% of the cap with his 4y/44M deal. Assuming a 103M salary cap, Jules @13.85% of the cap would mean he's making about 14.25M in year 1. Curry had better stats and made the All-NBA 2nd team before he got that extension. So asking Jules to take 12M is more than fair. But that is besides the point....I'm trying to nip this #PayJulius bull-s*** at the bud. Its down right stupid to throw money at the guy when he's proven nothing yet. And if he forces our hand by signing a max (close-to max) offer sheet, then we'll match it, but his days in LA are numbered. We'll reroute that contract to better round out our roster...I have no doubt. So its in Laker Fandles best interest that he gets a team friendly deal, cause that means he's more than likely to stay in LA throughout the life of that contract. That's all I'm saying. However, I've looked over the numbers and again and you're looking at around 113M for a roster that doesn't even account for the contracts that Deng will bring back. If Deng is going to just get dumped and create a trade exception, then that still gets applied to our cap (although it doesn't lead in counting toward taxes). So 113M plus a Deng trade exception puts us in the 130M area and that means we're past the hard-cap apron leading in restriction to any personnel movement we do moving forward. And if we're stretching Deng, that means 7.4M on our cap that puts us around 120M based off your numbers....so we will be a tax paying team under that scenario.
Deng doesn't have to bring back a contract. We can send him to Chicago or Sacramento with two picks attached and they could send us a future draft pick or the rights to a foreign stash that doesn't count against the cap. We then waive our TPE and move forward with just our regular cap space. I've done the math and it all checks out. If we trade Deng for no returning salary, we can be below the luxury tax threshold with three max deals to Julius, George, and LeBron. Ideally, we're not paying Julius a max deal, but we still could without much penalty. In my ideal scenario we give Julius a 17-18 million dollar deal. And Curry's deal at the time was actually worth more than that. The cap in 2013 was set at 58.7 million. The first year of his deal was worth 16.87% of the cap, but on average his deal was worth 18.7% of the cap. If Julius signed a similar deal, it would be more like 17.2 million in his first season, but on average closer to 19 million. Given that the Warriors were better than we are now and that Julius is worse than Curry at this stage in their development, I would think Julius settling for something in the 15-18 range makes sense. But it's still completely within his rights to sign a deal for 20+ million with another team and unfortunately I think in that scenario, we're screwed. And no worries, I know you're not picking on me I was just breaking it down that way because it's easier for me to focus.
@Real I think a Deng dump leading to a huge TPE would be a waste to just renounce. You can really round out a roster accordingly with that TPE. If Deng along with assets is only used so that we can offer more money to Bron, George and fit in more money for Jules...then that's a crazy waste of a resource all while expecting those 3 to play more minutes since no help is coming back. I would still prefer to somehow consolidate a Deng dump with an opted in PG trade. Deng/picks to Chicago Non-guaranteed Kilpatrick, pick compensation, RoLo, team friendly Felicio to OKC Opted in PG to LA Sorry for not clarifying...Curry took up 13.85% of GS's team salary (71.4M). So that would mean Jules would take much less than his max comparatively. Jules vs Curry (at that stage was 2nd Team All-NBA) shouldn't even be taking up as much cap space as Curry did, but even if he did, then he's closer to 15M than he his to 20M. Don't get me wrong, we'll match a 20M offer sheet, but he's less likely to stick in our long term plans then. Consider the projected cap outlook in year 2 of Bron, PG, Jules at those numbers....like I said, not sustainable, cause you're asking those dudes to do too much. Instead round out the roster with the extra cash savings in a non-max scenario.
