Brandon Ingram Discussion: He Is Who We Thought He Could Be

Discussion in 'NBA Discussion' started by Lakers2015, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. Khmrp

    Khmrp - Lakers MVP -

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    @abeer3 i really dont understand why you need to go out your way to hate on Ingram, hes doing what he can i didnt realize he was expected to carry n win the gm by himself
     
  2. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

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    Ingram shoots 67% and scores 25 with 9 rebounds making a few clutch shots in the fourth to help them win.
    I wonder what advanced analytic people will come up with today to discredit him.
    The turnovers? The anemic plus minus?
    Disappearing for two quarters?
    He's playing meh and scoring 25 points.
    That's gotta count for something.
     
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  3. vasashi17

    vasashi17 LB's Resident Capologist

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    Weird, I’m reading some folks already want to trade Kuz on this forum and that’s with poor shooting, a negative net rating, but pretty good defense in 4 games.

    Meanwhile you’re focusing on one game and a Pels team/coach that wasn’t all that good even with AD and Jrue.

    You already know how I scrutinize our team and there were talks within our fan base that Bron is washed and AD is too soft/lean and needs to man up at the 5. So you already know what it is...

    #GrassIsGreenerCuzOursStaysRed haha
     
  4. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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    LOL ^^^ you had a "like" again coming until the very end when you just had to tweak everyone.

    :ADnaughty:

     
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  5. ThizGuy83

    ThizGuy83 - Rookie -

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    ingram is who we thought would be.
     
  6. vasashi17

    vasashi17 LB's Resident Capologist

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    Not doing for the likes bro...just discussion amongst knowledgeable fans.

    But I’m sure nearly everyone here would criticize BI for a poor performance, it’s just that we saw him as the one that got away due to the potential. Especially on this team in particular. Imagine his lengf on the perimeter with AD & Dwight packing the paint...his net and defensive ratings would be insane here. Then you go to the other side of the ball, and he allows Bron not to be the primary playmaker on a majority of our possessions. His fit would be exactly what this team needs...which is why some of us here look at him as the one that got away.
     
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  7. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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    I do too. Slender Man when he's got it going is the bomb. Just meant the AD "needing to man up at the 5". Only when it makes sense.

    :Laugh:
     
  8. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff - Lakers Legend -

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  9. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    ^that was a good game. my point earlier was that you can't just crow about every game. his last one was bad, and he was clearly implicated in the latest of their many losses. this one was good and he was implicated in one of their rare victories (over charlotte). both were 25-27 point outings, one came on 12 shots, the other on 25 shots. in one game he was a +4, in the other, he was a -25.

    let's crow when appropriate and pipe down when appropriate.
     
  10. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

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    The point isn't that he's playing great... the point is that he's averaged 27 points PPG for 15-20 games in a row not playing great.
    Sure you can say what does it matter if you don't win, that it's easy to score on a bad team, but if that were the case players on losing teams would always dominate the points per game every year and that's generally not true.
    Do you know where averaging 26 points PPG gets you in terms of NBA history?
    It gets you tenth all time.
    Kobe averaged 25.6 PPG for his career
    Hakeem averaged 25.9
    Can Ingram keep it up? Who knows.
    Can he ever translate his production into wins? Who knows
    My main frustration is people act like what he's doing is typical or no big deal.
    It's not, it's way better than average despite his poor advanced analytics.
    People used to tell me that he'll never average 20 PPG... how he only scored 30 points twice during his entire early career.
    Then they'd also say he was a selfish black hole.
    How can you only score 30 points twice during your college and high school, yet be a black hole?
    Was it because he wasn't good enough? No, it was because he was doing what coaches asked him to do.
    AD averaged 24 PPG at 22 years old. On a bad team
    Ingram will never be the defensive player that AD is, but he's well on his way to being a more versatile offensive player.
     
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  11. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    lot to unpack there, but you basically provide all of the valid refutations of almost all of your own points.

    are you saying we should favor the counting stats over the advanced stuff? should we do this in all cases?

    and you're not really comparing him to 22 year old AD, are you?

    btw, to average 26 for his career, he'd have to do this (actually, better than this) for like, 10-12 seasons, then retire before he declined at all. you're cherry picking pretty hard there.

    count me as one who doesn't see this as a big deal. but i wasn't impressed with devin booker's 70 or his high scoring average, either.
     
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  12. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

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    AD averaged 24 PPG on a lousy team that went 30-52 when he was 22.
    One could argue that Eric Gordon, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday, Ryan Anderson is better than what Ingram's playing with at the moment.
    My point again isn't that BI is better or as good as AD... my point is that one player has been severely undervalued by LA fans and one has been slightly overvalued.
    AD is a better two way player... Ingram is okay but not dominant at defense like AD
    He's not a good rebounder for his length.
    However, he's a better iso scorer and has a more varied repertoire of moves and if it holds up, looks like a better outside shot.
    My comments are directed at people who think Ingram is trash next to AD or Ingram plus five assets is a good deal.
    So far it looks as though although we got the best player, that we may have given too much.
    A lot depends on whether Lonzo can break out of his funk and stay healthy... and whether those picks amount to anything.
    The fact that the answer for some of you is a foregone conclusion is what makes me comment.
    If Lonzo never gets any better and all the picks we give are low first rounders then maybe it wasn't.
     
  13. 432J

    432J - Lakers All Star -

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    i don't think anyone "severely undervalued" ingram. we all knew he had massive potential but was simply raw

    then last year he showed flashes of that potential before the blood clots. this season he just picked up where he left off. in terms of who can dominate a single game you can't even compare AD to BI. and BI has been shooting at a very high percentage this season so i'm curious to see what happens once he cools off

    like i said before, if you had to give up that package to get AD you do it 10/10 times. lebron+ingram+lonzo+this current bench might be a 6th-8th seed at best. AD makes this team an automatic title contender. can't say the same for BI
     
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  14. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

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    If Lonzo doesn't get better and we keep those draft picks low then I think it was a fair deal.
    If Lonzo does get better and something catastrophic happens to make the draft picks good, then it probably wasn't.
    So much is contingent on whether we sign AD and whether we are able to pair a young star next to him.
    If LBJ stays too long and ties up our salary cap like Kobe did during his farewell tour then it won't matter if we have AD.
    And I say this with respect because right now LBJ is playing incredibly for his age.
     
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  15. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    Isn’t that literally what he does? Okay, not literally. But he’s an okay shooter on 2s, below average on 3s and FTs. He’s a volume shooter who’s a net negative the past two seasons, but a lot of fans here love him and do praise him routinely.
     
  16. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    It’s kinda like you and D’Lo.
     
  17. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    how many times has kuzma gotten 25 shots in a game? my point is that it's not an impressive line. is anyone actually trying to argue it is?

    almost everyone wanted to keep ingram over kuzma, as i recall, so that's a bit of a strawman argument, imo.
     
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  18. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    it's not "hating". i'm responding to insinuations that his play indicates the AD trade wasn't a no-brainer. it most certainly was. glad for BI that he's playing well in NO and they like him. great news. i'm just as thrilled with the situation, personally.
     
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  19. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    Here are a few different claims:

    1. Should have kept BI over KK. I think that one's obviously true, ceteris paribus.
    2. BI is better than KK. I think that's obviously true.
    3. BI is the better prospect than KK. I think that's obviously true.
    4. Lakers fans think this or that. I have no clue what Lakers fans thought about the trade, because I didn't really follow it. I'll take your word for it, because it doesn't sound crazy.

    What strikes me as strange is when someone posts something good about BI in the BI thread and then gets crap about it. Happens all the time in the DAR thread. (I don't know about Lonzo; LA fans seem pretty down on him right now.) Not every Pro-X post means, "Lakers blew it by trading X."

    I'll carry that torch for DAR, but once they traded him, they were all in on now. It netted the Lakers LBJ and AD. I don't agree that that was the way to go, but from their POV - mission accomplished.

    Kuzma took 24 shots in a game as a rookie. He scored 9 points and was -7 and the Lakers lost. He took 25 last year, scored 37, and the Lakers lost. That was 10-22-18. Here's what Lakers fans had to say:

    "Superb offensive game"
    "Still my dude"
    "Amazing game - but can't do it consistently" (that's Kb keeping it real. haha)
    "Spectacular"
    "Amazing"
    "Miles ahead of BI on the offensive end"

    Reference: https://lakersball.com/threads/kyle-kuzma-discussion-hes-back.2754/page-139

    Isn't it okay to say, "Good game," and "bad game," without every game being, "Made the right choice," or "LA done F'd up"? Maybe you're not doing that, but it sometimes seems like that's what you're doing. Now, maybe others are initiating that talk and you're just responding. I don't know. I'll be honest: i skim through posts until someone says something interesting.

    For what it's worth, BI's 24-shot, 40-point game was damn good. So was last night's. The one in-between wasn't good; he shot below average, had a dreadful +/-, but he also rebounded well, blocked a shot, had a steal. I'd be very excited about Ingram if he were on my team, and he'll be lots of fun to watch going forward.
     
  20. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    yeah, not sure what to say. talk to the guy who keeps hedging on the ways in which the AD trade might be a mistake in the BI thread. i'm responding to that noise by pointing out that what BI is doing isn't that special nor is it something we never saw while he was in la. he's got a long leash on a team that doesn't care much about winning, and he's managed to stay on the court for ten games.
     

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