Brandon Ingram Discussion: He Is Who We Thought He Could Be

Zo form is ugly but he can get his shot of quickly Bi release/mechanics look slow

 

If you truly want BI to reach his potential, you better hope for a better developmental staff because Luke doesn't know how to properly develop young players.

 

Just along for the ride as a fan waiting to see who LeGM picks for the next coach of the Lakers and the roster around him.

 

BI’s arms are so long and he’s a two motion shooter so it is really slow. If I were coaching him I would tell him not to bring the ball so far back. It reminds of Kobe a little because Kobe brought the ball so far back so his set point wasn’t ideal. Of course, it worked for him. Usually, great two motion shooters are stronger. That’s why I think BI struggles somewhat.

As BI gains strength he can shorten his “wind up”. I think you would see his release actually quicken. If he had a little tighter release his jumper would be more reliable.

I don’t really like two motion because the timing of the jump and release isn’t as consistent as a one motion shooter.

From my personal experience, I think one motion is superior. My son is a one motion shooter and is really consistent with his shot.

 

Is that what Wilkes was .... 2? Don't really remember it other than it was kind of complex looking.

 

There were posts talking about how he is similar to KD and I was refuting that point, I'm not sure what you're upset about here.

When I criticize his shooting, I have a lot of evidence to do so. I don't need to be a shooting coach to know that no great shooter sucks at freethrows. Ingram has never shot above 70% in 3 seasons in the NBA as well as his 1 year in college. No "great" shooter has ever struggled that much from the line for that many consecutive seasons. Find me one counter example. Durant came in shooting 87%, and even Leonard who improved A LOT on his shooting ability because of San Antonio's shooting coach was still at 77% his rookie season (and by his 3rd season, he was over 80% and a finals MVP on a team with 3 future HOFs).

Shooting form doesn't tell you much about how a player shoots. If you look at the top 3 point contest winners this year, they all had VERY different forms. Not only that, but Kevin Martin who had some of the ugliest cross-your-body shooting form we've seen other than Lonzo, was a pretty decent shooter.

Even if you want to play that game, I've already posted in detail with footage about how Ingram's stroke and gather is too slow for him to be an effective perimeter shooting threat. Not with how adept modern defenses are at closing out. But honestly, he hasn't even had to deal with that yet, considering teams are happy to leave him wide open most of the time.

I don't mean to s*** on the kid, but he's not Durant, and will never be that type of shooter. I even gave him lots of props for his strengths and improvement over the last 2 games, which you seem to ignore in favor of attacking my supposed lack of credentials? C'mon man...

 

Bruce Bowen: career 39.3% from 3, 57.5% FTs
Jason Richardson: career 37.0% from 3, 70.7 FTs (in college 64.9%, and only cracked 70% once in first 6 years in NBA)
Chandler Parsons: career 37.4% from 3, 70.9% FTs (61.1% in 4 years of college)
Bobby Phills: career 39.0% from 3, 73.8% FTs (63.6% and 60% first 2 years in NBA)
Omri Casspi: career 36.8% from 3, 67.8% FTs

Honorable mention: Jason Kidd, who started his first 5 years unable to crack 70% from the FT line, but became lethal from 3 later on in his career (40+% three consecutive years --- something KD has yet to accomplish) and also increased his FT% to over 80%.

Believe it or not, shooting can be improved. A LOT.

 

I think folks on here would find your arguments more compelling if you would take a minute and realize what you’re writing and then don’t respond condescendingly because another’s view doesn’t comport with your thoughts about the subject. There are many smart and knowledgeable people on this forum who keep it low key. You might learn something if you keep an open mind. We are all here because we love the Lakers.

The bolded part is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. Set point consistency is what gives one the opportunity to be a good to great shooter. You cite guys with different forms. No one shoots the ball the same way because our bodies are different. I coach shooting so I always say do what is comfortable that will lend to consistently hitting the same set and release point. There is no right way. Steph Curry has a low set point. He covers his eye before moving the ball forward to release and he’s a one motion shooter. Klay has text book form. Ray Allen, a great shooter has a high set point and is a two motion shooter. Shooting can be improved. A two motion shooter needs lots of upper body strength because the ball pauses before the person releases it. Kobe and LeBron are two motion. My contention is that as BI gets stronger he can tighten up his release and won’t need as much range of motion to get off his shot. I watch him on free throws and he looks like a noodle. The guy needs to get stronger. It will help in many ways.

A consistent set point and then release where the elbow is level with eyebrow on the arm extension is what sets the foundation for great shooting. Set point and release point are all part of the shooting form.

Anyway, that is my opinion. You can take or leave it.

 

And .... I think that's the first time you've mentioned you coach shooting BMJ, but could be wrong, and the different basic types of releases including Steph, Ray, Klay, Kobe and LeBron for example. Interesting. So what was Wilkes doing please with his?

 

Shoot! I shouldn't have mentioned that... haha! I like being low key on this stuff. And certainly my opinion is not gospel.

It's interesting how much there is to shooting. It's fascinating! What finger is the last to release the ball? Some use index... my son feels comfortable using his middle finger. I was extremely impressed with Kobe. If you recall when he would break a finger, the Rifleman would help Kobe determine what finger would be the last finger to release. Kobe, to keep things humming, changed to his middle finger as the primary pushing digit. Super impressive that he could do that. The guy is a machine!

Other things I find interesting, Kyrie has off-hand interference. He is a "thumber" meaning he uses his thumb on his off-hand to push and stabilize when releasing the ball. There are several players that do that. Wilkes has a lot of off-hand interference... it's like a catapult. Wilkes' off-hand stabilizes the ball but also provides addition power to the shot. He also has a set point that is way back over/behind his head... see image below:



One other thing... I mentioned earlier that I didn't really delve into is my preference for one-motion shooting vs. two motion shooting. And some guys use both like Klay when he does his fadeaways (two-motion and high set point). The issue I have with two motion is that one must elevate and before the apex of the jump release the ball. It is all about timing. Guys that go into shooting slumps usually have timing issues if they are two motion shooters. One motion shooters don't rely on elevation and then strength to release but rather use energy and a single motion to generate power. They dip to get into rhythm and then allow the force or energy generated to transfer through the entire body. It means that the upper body can be relaxed and allow the force (not Star Wars!) generated by the legs to flow all the way to the release of the ball. I know I'm getting deep here but I thought I should leave this for you guys to chew on.

 

Seriously, this was awesome! Thx for the meaningful contributions (among all the b*******, including from yours truly) to this site.

So...about Zo....
(sorry if I missed your take on it...I've been distracted... hopefully no more)

 

Shooting can be improved, but it's unlikely to improve drastically after that many seasons of poor shooting.

The counter examples you listed are technically correct, but there's a lot of missing context.

1. You'd never consider Bowen a "good" shooter precisely because of his poor FT% (which btw, he barely even shot anyways so the data is super limited). The guy shot well from the corner 3 spot on VERY low volume. And never cracked 10 ppg in his entire career. If you want to argue Ingram is going to be a primary defensive wing player who will shoot the occasional corner 3, I won't argue with that. In fact I've stated defense is one of his stronger points right now. But Bruce Bowen was never a good shooter, nor was he ever really relied to do that.

2. I don't think Richardson is a great example for other reasons, but statistically I'll give it to you.

3. Parsons shot 73% his second year in the league. I was saying the fact Ingram hasn't done it for 3 seasons is problematic.

4. Phillis is a bad example. Cracked 70% by his 3rd year in the league and never shot more than 1 3 per game, so the 3P% is pretty irrelevant.

5. Casspi improved, but he's not a great shooter, on any metric really.

Really the best example you gave is Jason Kidd, and I'll completely give you that. But Kidd is very much an outlier, and for every Kidd there's a thousand guys who never improved on their shot significantly.

Also the argument I was trying to make was that its rare for someone who shoots FTs so poorly to become a GOOD shooter. Not that they can't improve. The reason I was saying that was to refute the KD comparisons. I don't think anyone would argue Ingram is going to achieve close to KD levels of shooting in his career. It's unlikely, and I was using the FT% to prove why since I was getting some heat for it. None of the the dudes we've discussed were ever at KD shooting levels, either. It's just not going to happen.

Instead we should focus on what Ingram's strengths are *right now* and try to maximize those.

 

Sorry if you felt I was being condescending towards you. @LTLakerFan was saying I had no authority to speak on the topic and questioned my lack of credentials when I made the argument that KD and Ingram aren't very similar, which pretty much everyone agrees with. I've kept it civil the entire time, and only responded more aggressively once those comments came about. I don't appreciate ad hominem attacks and I'll support my position when presented with those. If you dislike that type of discussion, take it up with him or the moderators. But I've never directly attacked anyone.

You can read here directly what he said, coming at me after I said Ingram has a lot of strengths but isn't comparable to KD. Pretty condescending, but anyways...

I'm also more than willing to keep an open mind. I've in fact repeatedly given Ingram a lot of credit for things he's doing well. But at the same time, I will stick to my viewpoint unless proven otherwise with evidence. I'd posted wildly unpopular opinions on here multiple times before only for that to become the hivemind opinion later down the line.

If I provide a lot of evidence for why I think Ingram isn't good at X Y Z. And a hundred people come screaming at me "hEs OnLy 21!!!!! ThE yOuNG CoRREEE" that's not really grounds for any conducive discussion. And I fail to see why I should alter my viewpoint.

I don't think we're disagreeing on anything. I said that players can shoot with different forms and still be good shooters. I know Curry and Klay have different forms and that Klay's is more textbook, but Curry is the better shooter. In fact what I've criticized Ingram on with regards to his form are his slow release and gather. You can actually go back to my posts from this summer where I specifically called this out. I don't think anything else in his form is particularly problematic.

Strength can help, but it's not the end all be all. KD was weak as s*** coming into the league and shot just fine. Same with Curry. And lots of other guys. He does need to decrease his release time though, but I don't think that's related to upper body strength.

 

First off BMJ and bfc...kudos towards showing how a real discussion should be run around here. Hey khmrp, let bygones be bygones...maybe this is how we should dance from now on.

Secondly, do we really want BI to become a prolific shooter? I rather he master the swiss army type player he is now where you can plug and play. The way the games is going, shooting is obviously a premium, so how do you stand out? A 6-9 and something point guard that can post up, take you off the dribble, draw the whistle and be a cutter by playing weakside off ball...then run down the other way and guard the best perimeter player. That's much different than a 3&D player. Obviously we got superstars that do that already, but if he never gets there...stand out in other ways.

He is young and that is why he needs to go down that path more. Eventually, them legs will get some weathering and he will have to embrace playing more off ball and under a catch and shoot capacity...but we're talking years and lengthy playoff runs later. For the now, his shooting should primarily be focused on exploiting opportunities from the free throw line extended. That's my preference because I'm really over the 3ball revolution. I don't really like how the game has turned into that.

Another element is biologically his metabolism is gonna take a hit. It happens to everybody. So dude has the capacity to get much stronger and that will obviously impact his shooting dynamics when that mass starts to accumulate (but correct me if I'm wrong fellas).

Anyways, lastly noone should target one member and be a condescending a**hole to them.



And see that is actual hypocrisy or did I still do it wrong, Abeer?

 

I think this is a much more reasonable take than expecting or asking him to become KD lite, which is the only thing I disagree with.

 

as a two-motion shooter, i can say it has advantages in pull-ups and fades and such. like russell westbrooks "stop on a dime from a dead sprint" shots in the paint.

 

You can still pull up with a one motion shot, though your release point will likely be lower.

1 motion shot is the way to go IMO, because it allows you to more optimally use energy from your legs which keeps your shot more consistent over the course of a game, and the season.