I've seen Hill play, when he was in Detroit. To me, he was a much much better player than T-Mac. For starters -- he played the f***ing defense.
hmmm...i think calling iverson's finals year cast lame is a stretch. deke wasn't on his last legs, he was the dpoy. larry brown was coy, iirc. and wasn't mckie sixth man, too? and i don't remember the east being particularly troublesome back then, either. anyway, we're still really pointing to one year's good fortune. i guess i view ai, tmac, vc, ray allen all on roughly the same plane. if one's in the HOF, they all are. i would hear arguments for none making it, but i think parsing there is tougher than some are suggesting.
Playoff success, complete numbers, longevity, high peaks. Tmac only has one of those. The rest have all 4, though his peak was a bit higher than than VC and Allen. AI's cast wasn't garbage in 01 but he, and Mckie to a much small extent, were the offense. Ty Hill, Eric Snow, Mat Geiger, George Lynch, Deke. Rugged, defenders but pretty much one way players. It was very remarkable that he beat the Raptors and the Bucks, who weren't pushover those years. But, year, he only made a few more playoff wins after.
right. i wouldn't call iverson's career one defined by winning and playoff success. actually, ray allen has a better case there. and for the five-year peak, i'm not sure any of those had more "complete" stats. all were superstars as scorers only, none had consistent reps as defenders, none had any sustained success in terms of W/L as a team's top option. so, the argument comes down to sustained productivity. if that's your case, i guess mcgrady is out (as is grant hill, who was indeed better than all of them). but i'm not sure if that's the most appropriate way to determine who's a hofer.
Wait, wut? League-leading scoring along with an all around game is the definition of a superstar in the NBA.
He is a superstar. Stay with superstar score all great everything else. He was never a superstar passer, shooter, rebounder or shot blocker. And didnt last nearly as long as the other players on that list.
What shooting guard has ever been considered a superstar passer? When you find one, compare their assist numbers with McGrady's. Kobe was a pretty good rebounder. McGrady was better. Not sure I expect rebounding out of my SG, but again, I'll be happy to compare his numbers with anyone you want. Big difference between a great shooter and a great scorer. He was an elite scorer. Other than Curry, Bird, Allen and Reggie, who were great shooters that were also scorers? Not many. And I'll take a scorer (McGrady, Kobe, Iverson, etc) over a great shooter any day. He did have 2 seasons in the top 10 for 3pt FG%, but I admit he's not an elite shooter from distance. He averaged 0.9 blocks per game. Double what Kobe averaged, who was a 11 time All Defense team member. Advanced stats: 31st all time in PER. 14th all time in Usage percent. 30th all time in Value over replacement player.
Superstar = HOFer You keep bringing up longevity but let's not act like he was only active for 2-3 years. He was elite for nearly a decade.
this is what it comes down to...what's the arbitrary time cutoff? i agree that longer dominance is more impressive, but longer semi-dominance versus shorter actual dominance is a tougher discussion.
05 3rd all nba team. 06 none. hurt, not my problem. 07 2nd. 08 3rd. I think we have a lower bar set for elite, too.
They choked, and the aggressive team got the calls. That being said, lucky to get the win, and they probably remain one of the best teams never to win a championship. That was a seriously solid squad
Game 6, I think the refs went overboard in LAs favor after LA (Shaq in particular) got screwed in game 5. So Sac got a gift in game 5. We got a gift in game 6. Everyone brings up game 6, but conveniently ignores Sac had a 40-20 lead in game 4. They win that and they are up 3-1. They also had home court for the pivotal game 7 and lost a fairly officiated game. They missed 14 of 30 FTs. Can't expect to win doing that.
...Webber touching the ball as it went out of bounds that was declared Kings ball, then on the subsequent play sets a moving pick on Fisher on what became the game winning J by Bibby. Oh and let's not forget about that mugging Bobby Jackson administered on Bryant's last second attempt. Game 6? We forced the issue and had the refs call 'em.
It was an awesome series, but we never had a rivalry with the Queens. They have to win in order to have a rivalry.
