What Is Your Personal Philosophy?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Philosophy -(FORUM CLOSED)-' started by FreeThePeople, Nov 5, 2014.

  1. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,833
    Likes Received:
    4,203
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    No. I believe only animals have it. Since animals have to be proactive in order to survive.

    Plants, microorganisms, and non-animal lifeforms are more reactionary.
     
  2. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    I'm no biology expert, but didn't we just evolve from cells? If so, where do we first get consciousness?
     
  3. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,127
    Likes Received:
    18,496
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    Consciousness is an emergent property.
    It simply emerges, and figuring out "where" is a really hard question; somewhere between grass and you :)
     
  4. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    How can we know that consciousness hasn't been around since the start of the universe (if that even is exists)?

    I guess we have to define consciousness. How would you all define it?

    Being self-aware? Being able to perceive? Being able to make a decision? Being able to freely move?
     
  5. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,127
    Likes Received:
    18,496
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    It might have been around forever, but it can still be an emergent property. Emergent properties are not reducible to their base properties. That's all they are.

    I think self-aware is a pretty good definition of being conscious.
     
  6. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    I googled emergent properties, but still don't really get it.

    Could you define it in your own words?

    Putting it in relation to consciousness might help.
     
  7. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,127
    Likes Received:
    18,496
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    So think of an emergent property this way:

    You have an organism that has the property of housing 1 calorie of energy.
    You combine three of these organisms. Should be 3 calories.
    But if you combine them in a particular structure, the result is a 4 calorie complex.

    Because the 4 calories is not reducible to the constituent parts, this new complex has an emergent property: +1 calorie.

    Similarly, you can have cells in a heap; but when they're in a certain kind of relation to one another (they have a structure of being-a-person), suddenly, the complex is conscious.

    Is that helpful?

    Maybe easier:
    Hit a bit of dynamite 100000 times gently, no explosion.
    Hit it with as much force as the 100000 exert IN ONE BLOW and it explodes.
     
  8. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    Yes, that is helpful, thanks @trodgers.

    I guess what this leads me to think is, are there are levels of consciousness?

    Like human consciousness is probably quite similar to that of other animals, but we still seem to have a higher level than them.

    Might plants have a lower level of consciousness, and germs even lower, and so on?

    I think we really need to understand scientifically if other organisms are self-aware, and where/if that self-awareness stops.
     
  9. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,127
    Likes Received:
    18,496
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    There's good evidence that some other animals are self-aware.

    Check out the Rouge Test. It's fascinating.
     
  10. TIME

    TIME Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,800
    Likes Received:
    22,710
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Lifelong Lakers fan.
    Location:
    LaLa Land
    Offline
    You say that with such certainty.
     
    trodgers likes this.
  11. Punk-101

    Punk-101 - Lakers Starter -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,868
    Likes Received:
    7,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Consciousness is such a hotly debated topic in both science and philosophy. It hurts my head to try to understand it, but it fascinates me as well.

    My guess is that it's an emergent property, like a software program. You can't open up a computer and find Microsoft Office, but when the computer is assembled and electricity is flowing, that software can be accessed. The same parallel can be drawn asking a neurosurgeon to find my memory of Horry's game-winner vs the Kings. (Is that even a correct analogy of an emergent property, Trav?)

    I'm not certain that the above is true, but I'm led to deduce that it is because of these questions:

    If consciousness is not an emergent property of neural cells + chemicals + electrical signals, but is something separate:
    1. Where does it go during sleep/coma/anesthesia/amnesia?
    2. Why is it affected beyond our control by chemicals (drugs), injury/stroke/tumors etc, and electrical or magnetic stimulation? In other words, if you change the biology/chemicals/electricity/magnetism you change the self.
    3. How are many psychological disorders accounted for?
    - multiple personality disorder or dissociative fugue (google it rookies ;) )
    -PTSD/developmental trauma symptoms where one has no control over his/her stress response system (brain stem) and emotional regulation (limbic system), resulting in reactive behaviors & emotions that are out of the control of free will of the self/consciousness?
    -Schizophrenia and other psychoses.
    -Addictions. The areas of the brain needed for rational thought, impulse regulation, planning/consequences of behavior, and reward/pleasure are literally turned off at times of stress, resulting in drug use that is most of the time out of the control of the self. In other words, the self/consciousness is just a software program like those other brain functions I just mentioned.
     
    Finwë, trodgers and revgen like this.
  12. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,833
    Likes Received:
    4,203
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I believe that consciousness requires the living organism to be so aware of it's environment, that it can plan how to build a shelter, how to forage, and how to hunt for food.

    Animals have to be proactive. Insects implement complex social orders and build nests. Wolves hunt in packs. Beavers chew down trees and bushes to build dams. Even animals who do not roam with a group have ingenious ways of sneaking up on their prey.

    Plants simply react to the heat of the sun or to water reaching it's roots. No advance planning or strategy takes place. If a plant is "conscious", then so is my car alarm.
     
  13. TIME

    TIME Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,800
    Likes Received:
    22,710
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Lifelong Lakers fan.
    Location:
    LaLa Land
    Offline
    Why, I oughta...!

    [​IMG]


    Ok, what is the one missing element in your computer / Microsoft Office / electricity analogy?

    Hint: the computer and the Office software both had engineers who planned the "emergence". :p
     
    Punk-101 likes this.
  14. Punk-101

    Punk-101 - Lakers Starter -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,868
    Likes Received:
    7,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    OMG, that gif is awesome!

    Natural selection is an engineer, just not a purposeful one.

    I have no clue as to the specifics of the evolution of the specific areas of the brain and in what area (combinations of areas actually), and at what time did the emergence come about.

    What I do understanding vaguely is that the emergence would have to be very gradual. For example: basic memory, basic recognizing patterns, understanding agenticity, basic planning, basic language, and eventually self awareness and introspection. Stephen Pinker would be a good youtube search about this topic.
     
  15. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,127
    Likes Received:
    18,496
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    But then God would need an engineer to explain His consciousness. So be careful :)
     
    TIME likes this.
  16. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    Plants only react, but wouldn't self-awareness at its most basic level simply be knowing if you're getting enough sunlight/rain or not in terms of a plant?

    I'm not sure I agree with that. Natural selection isn't possible without reproduction, but reproduction isn't possible without survival. I think that organisms attempt to lessen the struggle to survive in every moment they live. Isn't that purposeful? The reason one individual survives and passes on its traits is because it wanted to get away from the predator and not struggle with the pain of getting eaten, for the most basic example.

    Its*
     
  17. Punk-101

    Punk-101 - Lakers Starter -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,868
    Likes Received:
    7,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    ^^
    Yes, the individuals involved in the process of natural selection are purposefully trying to survive, but that's not what I meant. The process of natural selection isn't an intentional plan with the purpose of making things adapt in order to survive. Natural selection is blind and undiscriminating. Maybe there is a god who uses natural selection as his plan/purpose, but there's no reason to need to insert that into the equation scientifically.
     
    FreeThePeople likes this.
  18. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    15,641
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    CEO - Big Baller Brand
    Offline
    Just stopping by to say that gif by Time is hilarious.
     
  19. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,833
    Likes Received:
    4,203
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    No. Basic consciousness requires the ability to take sensory information and use that information to accomplish proactive tasks. Unconscious and subconscious human beings can detect when their lungs need oxygen and breathe while still asleep. Not too different than what a plant does with water.
     
  20. FreeThePeople

    FreeThePeople - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    I disagree. Consciousness doesn't require action, it simply requires feeling or knowing. I imagine trees feel if they are healthy or receiving rain/sun.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conscious

    None of these define consciousness as affirmative action, except #7, but that is specifically referring to an action and how an action can be conscious.
     

Share This Page