To Serve And Protect

I don't think they were being reasonable. From what I could tell, I couldn't see where the officer was wrong. However, I don't think the people rioting about this shooting are any more wrong than those supporting the shootings of Eric Gardner and John Crawford as justified.

These people are looting for an unjust reason and those making excuses for those two killings (among others) are supporting sanctioned executions/murder for an unjust reason.

 

With Gardner, even when you can't breathe, people do still have the ability to talk for a bit. You're not able to take in air properly, but you still have air in your body, so it is possible to say a few words. Also the medical examiner ruled Gardner's death a homicide, so the medical examiner even said it was the officers actions that caused his death. That's pretty clear cut IMO.

 

No man. In the video the officer has his forearm directly against Garners throat. That is a move that will cut off oxygen intake, possibly crush the wind pipe, and can kill. If he had the bend of his arm over the throat, with his forearm and bicep on either side of the neck that could have cut off blood to the brain and made Garner pass out, but it wouldn't have killed Garner. The point is moot because either form of that move was deemed unlawful by the NYPD way before this incident anyway.

Also, from what I understand, the coroner said neck compression and chest compression were the cause of death and ruled it a homicide. To me, unless there's some other evidence, that's a pretty clear cut determination no matter how hard it is to choke someone out.

 

So now there's widespread cop hunting across the country going on... Two cops in New York, another in Atlanta I believe was shot at, and this morning a squad car was shot at in Los Angeles.

Is this what we're coming to?

 

Is that somehow more significant or unjust than these cases of police unjustly shooting unarmed black men? Why should someone care about police getting attacked and not the police attacking unarmed citizens that didn't deserve to die? Understand I'm not advocating it, but if people are targeting cops, that would be the result of the unjust attacks made by the police on blacks in this country and a concerted effort to protect these killers by the courts and their fellow cops who are otherwise good cops.

Why do police officers lives matter more than black citizens?

 

I made no such claim and I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate that I did.

If you want to support the idea that blacks are dying at some enormous rate because of country-wide police racism, that's fine. I heard your case, I understand it, and I can see validity in some of the points. That does not however excuse this behavior.

IF you're correct and police officers are shooting blacks unjustly, then your position now shouldn't change because it's the other way around. Two wrongs have never made a right the last I'd checked. This isn't a fistfight or childhood bickering. There are lives in the balance. This isn't a police officer overreacting to a distress call or an emergency situation. These are men being hunted and shot and murdered in cold blood. They weren't pulled over after violating some traffic law. They weren't walking around a store with an apparent weapon. They weren't even shot after a noise report. Just driving along and murdered (or attempted) in their cars.

You ask how it's different? Even if it's not, the response should be the same either way: it's wrong. Unless there's strong evidence that the police being fired on were evil men that had done wrong in their lives, there is absolutely no justification for these attempted murders.

I have very close friends that have gone through marches, sit ins, and have protested loudly but peacefully through the streets of LA. That is how you change things the right way. Murdering people who may be innocently protecting citizens lives is disgusting, despicable, and unacceptable.

 

I wasn't insinuating you made those claims, I'm flatly stating that everything you're saying in this post is correct, yet in this thread rev and myself have been the only ones declaring that what's going on with all these killings is wrong. Everyone else in this thread seems to be saying "yeah, but..." to every example I give where someone is killed unjustly. There is no but. There is no excuse. There is no caviot that justifies these killings committed by these officers. We have some on film, and there's still no sense of the unjust nature of what people are witnessing.

So what is so significant to these officers being attacked that we should care about that, and not these citizens being killed? Murdering people who may be innocently protecting citizens lives is disgusting, despicable, and unacceptable.... but murdering people just standing in an isle in Walmart talking on there cell gets a "yeah, but..."? Murdering people who may be innocently protecting citizens lives is disgusting, despicable, and unacceptable.... but shooting a 12 year old kid within 2 seconds of pulling up gets a "yeah, but..."? Murdering people who may be innocently protecting citizens lives is disgusting, despicable, and unacceptable.... but shooting someone in their back while they couldn't have possibly shot at an officer gets a "yeah, but..."?

I'm not excusing attacking any officers, I'm saying people in here are excusing officers attacking us and asking why is one significant and not the other.

 

Never saw the 12 year old kid in two seconds video you're referring to, but sure there's extenuating circumstances. You cannot simply gloss over the fact that the guy was holding what appeared to be a weapon in a store. Did they shoot too quickly? YES. We've all agreed on that point. The loss of that young man's life is nothing to be scoffed at, but the point remains that a threat was obviously called in to those officers. Shot too early, but there was still an apparent "threat".

These cops are simply waiting at stop lights or their offices and getting shot at. Do you not see the distinction? They're just driving. If a cop pulled up to a black man and pulled the trigger in the car next to him at a stop light, is that not infinitely different from a man carrying a gun around a store? Do you not see the distinction there at all?

I've stepped away from this thread to try not to compromise my emotions by getting wrapped up in the arguments and by staying true to the facts I see. Is there evidence of black men getting shot or shot at by the police more often than other races? Some, yes. There's enough evidence to make an argument. That does NOT mean every video I see of a black person confronted by police officers = blatant police officer abuse. There's always a story that needs to unfold before you can pass a judgement on an entire profession. There's a distinct difference in walking up to a squad car and murdering someone and responding to a stress call and firing too early. Neither are right, but one is more wrong than the other. One is cold blooded, serial murder and the other is- in my estimation- manslaughter. Both are punishable by jail-time. I'm not excusing officers for their transgressions. They still need to be punished for their actions. I've been adamant on that point. That doesn't mean what they do is equal to murder or that I'm valuing any person's life over another. I've not done that and the argument you're giving me really seems to indicate you think I am. I'm not, nor have I ever, said that the police lives are more important than the lives of civilians.

The deaths of those that I've seen from the hands of police officers are abuses of their power due to life and death circumstances. If a police officer is threatened with death, it's within their rights to defend themselves with lethal force. Should they be more competent in evaluating those situations? ABSOLUTELY. Are they guilty of a crime deserving of punishment? UNDOUBTEDLY. But that is in no way equal to a person walking up to them and shooting them in their cars. It's just not.

 

The injustice is equal and the justice being served as a result is not. People don't deserve to die for being a human and having momentary lapses in judgement. Worse still, all this could be fixed if people would stop protecting cops that do these kinds of things. We're seeing the police kill/shoot/attack people for the most minor things that could have been resolved by the officers just talking instead of executing the person. People have the right to walk around and live their life without always being on point worrying that they are going to get shot and killed at all times.

I've seen at least THIRTY TWO unarmed people shot and killed by the police this year. How many police have been unjustly shot and killed as a result of this topic? As far as I know, TWO. Of those 32 people killed how many of the officers were indicted? Eight. Of all the people who shoot and kill officers this year, how many are indicted? ALL! 100%! that is a significant difference.

This is the 12 year old I was talking about. Dav and I were talking about it earlier in this thread. At the time, the police's story sounded justified to me, and then I saw the video where it didn't even look like they had time to put on the parking break before they jumped out and killed him, and then I found out that the person that called the police told the 911 dispatcher that they thought the gun was a toy, and then I found out that the officer that shot Tamir had been deemed unfit as a police officer and was about to get fired for mental problems in his last department:



Did this kid make a mistake? Of course. Did the officers shoot on sight? Yes they did. I played with toy guns as a kid. I bet most boys did. I think most of us could have been shot and killed as a kid walking around with a toy gun, if this was justified.

 

Again, you're missing my point. My point is not about whether or not the cops should be punished and that's what you're saying. The cops who shot these people deserve indictment. Sure, that's fine. Give these cops a punishment for reacting too quickly, but please for the life of me sympathize with the officer for one second on some of those cases. You cannot look at the video of the kid in Wal-Mart with a gun and not understand the cops' position. If that guy IS a crazy person with a rifle in a Wal-Mart, there's lives at stake. Not just yours and your fellow officers, but the lives of civilians that might still be in the store or just outside the store. Obviously, you give the kid a chance to put the weapon down and so obviously those cops deserve punishment, but there's still some reason behind what they did.

The 12 year old? I know I never walked around with a realistic looking gun, pointing it at people. I mean I had guns and I played with toy guns, but I never walked around a park pointing it at people... Where were this kid's parents? I mean really what the hell is going on here? The kid is by himself in a park with a realistic looking gun pointing it at people. If that was my son, he'd be in big trouble. OBVIOUSLY not saying the cops should shoot on sight. You have to give the person a chance to show it's a fake gun and to put the gun down and explain what's happening. OBVIOUSLY the cops were wrong to shoot that quickly. That doesn't mean they didn't have reason for concern. Even if it's a five year old with a deadly weapon, there's cause for real concern. You don't know if that kid might accidentally shoot you or him/herself or someone a block away. You DON'T shoot the kid, but there's a real cause for concern in that situation. I would still put those cops on trial, but not for murder.

As for # of cops vs. # of unarmed people shot. You're looking at 32 over the year that's almost three people a month across the country of about 316 million people. Thirty two people out of 316 million over 363 days isn't that many. Anything over zero is a tragedy, but it's also not unheard of. Is that number atypical for a year? (honest questions, I don't have the information) And is it unarmed people in general, or unarmed people of a certain race/religion/sex/etc?

Despite those numbers, there's been two killed in New York, another shot at in Atlanta, and another two shot at in Los Angeles in the space of nine days. Extrapolated that's 203 people shot or shot at in a year, right? And that's only cops which make up maybe 1,000,000 of the population. Even if it's apples-to-apples attacking police officers and attacking civilians, the attacks on five police officers in just nine days are more frequent and more alarming.

You're stuck on this argument that it's apparently justified to shoot at unarmed civilians, black or not, but it's not okay to shoot at cops. I never said that, so arguing that point at me is insinuating that I'm justifying the deaths of innocent people. I'm not. I'm providing prospective as to why one is worse than the other. A serial murder is far, far more sinister and terrible than a person who over reacts to a stressful situation.

I'm going to leave it there because I'm not sure we're going to agree. I've made my point and I don't need to rehash it anymore. There's right ways to protest and that does not include cop killing. There's no justification for those actions. If a cop can't be forgiven for killing an unarmed civilian, there's no justification for a person plotting and executing a lethal attack on those same cops.

 

@therealdeal I don't think you're getting my point either. I'm explaining why the injustice is equal but people don't recognize it.

For example, The cops being shot are just minding their own business in the street? So was John Crawford in Walmart. You're saying that there was a reason why they were being called to the scene, but I'm saying that if that reason they were called is not justified (the guy that called 911 lied and said Crawford was pointing the BB gun at people), and the officers actions upon arriving at the scene aren't reasonable, then how is that killing any more justified than the shooting of these police? IMO it is not. Giving a reason that is not acted upon in a reasonable way does not validate the outcome.

I feel like you think I'm accusing you of justifying all these black deaths. I am not doing that. What I am doing is trying to explain why these police shootings are no better and no worse. Neither set of shootings/killings are the result of reasonable actions.

 

Oh, and...

"
Two men who shot up Idaho Walmart with BB gun taken into custody by police




TOM BOGGIONI
28 DEC 2014 AT 18:20 ET


Two Idaho men were taken into custody without incident after shooting up a Walmart with a BB gun, the Coeur d’Alene Press reports.

Users of social media have claimed the arrest of the two men — who were not identified — stands in contrast to an incident at a Ohio Walmart in August involving an African-American man, John Crawford, that left him dead after police shot him while he stood in an aisle holding a BB gun he had removed from a shelf.

According to Idaho police, the two intoxicated men walked into the Post Falls Walmart and proceeded to remove BB guns from boxes, before loading one and firing it four times while in the store.

Walmart store security contacted police, saying the two men “started shooting the gun in the store and made comments that they were going to shoot the store up.”

According to one Walmart loss prevention employee, the men approached him and asked if he wanted to join them.

The two men exited the store before police arrived, but officers and sheriff’s deputies were able to set up a perimeter and take them into custody without incident.

According to police, the two men were charged with aggravated assault, discharging a firearm in city limits, and malicious damage to property.

The shooting of John Crawford at the Ohio Walmart drew national attention, whensurveillance video showed Crawford facing away from officers, talking on his cell phone, and leaning on the BB gun like a cane when officer came around a display and shot him.

Police had been called to the store by a panicky Walmart customer, Robert Ritchie, who claimed that Crawford had been “threatening” customers with a rifle. Ritchie laterchanged his story, saying, “At no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody,” although he continued to insist Crawford was “waving it around,” despite video not backing up his assertion.

An Ohio grand jury refused to hand down an indictment of the police officers involved in Crawford’s death.

Special Prosecutor Mark Piepmeier, appointed by Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine called Crawford’s death a tragedy for his family and the officers who, he said, will live the rest of their lives knowing “they took the life of someone who didn’t need to die.”

The discrepancy in how the different men were treated by police was noted on Twitter by RightWingWatch Fan:

 

"Here are some good cops who have the crappy job of protecting you in trigger-happy America




TRAVIS GETTYS
30 DEC 2014 AT 14:00 ET

Police officers have a s***ty job.

Day in and day out, they deal almost exclusively with people having a really bad day – many of whom are carrying weapons and are highly motivated to avoid capture.

They respond to toxic and combustible domestic calls. They’re called to gruesome crime scenes. They’re the first to arrive at horrific crashes. They break tragic news to family members. They’re sometimes forced to work alongside cops who are truly terrible at their jobs, if not outright psychopaths.

Most police officers make it through the day underpaid and underappreciated, just like we all do. But some truly do go beyond what’s required of them, and we want to recognize these competent, humane officers for a job well done.

Trooper Jeff Jones, of the Utah Highway Patrol, helped an elderly woman visit her ailing son after stopping her for a traffic violation. The 87-year-old woman accidentally backed into the trooper’s patrol car during the stop, and Jones determined she couldn’t safely complete the 180-mile drive. So he arranged to shuttle the woman to Salt Lake City with the help of three other troopers. “I just decided she needed help and we do help shuttle people once in a while — so why not her?” Jones said.

Officers A.D. McElroy, Justin Jenkins, Toma Sparks, and Robert McCurry pooled their money to provide a hotel stay and groceries to a homeless Tennessee family turned away from a Salvation Army shelter. The family had been sleeping in their car outside Walmart but sought help when temperatures plunged below 20 degrees, only to find the shelter would not admit their 15-year-old son as a possible safety risk. The four Johnson City police officers chipped in their own money and solicited donations from 911 dispatchers to help the family rent a hotel room, but managers at the Johnson Inn provided free shelter to them after learning of the officers’ assistance. So the cops bought the family dinner and groceries and gave them the leftover cash.

Sgt. Sean Gordon and Lt. Stacey Geik managed to keep their cool and helped defuse apotentially violent encounter with an apparently intoxicated man carrying a rifle and threatening revolution. Video shows 63-year-old Joseph Houseman grabbing his genitals, screaming obscenities at police, claiming a First Amendment right to threaten their families, and providing an obviously false name – Joe Schmoe – during the encounter. But the officers kept talking calmly to Houseman, who eventually apologized and agreed to hand over his rifle to police if he could pick it up the following day. No one was injured, and Houseman wasn’t even charged. Michigan law allows for the open carry of firearms, but Geik said Houseman made a poor example of safe gun ownership. “They might as well put up a billboard right now that says the Second Amendment is junk because of people like this,” the officer said.

Police and sheriff’s deputies arrested — but did not shoot – two apparently intoxicated white men who opened fire inside an Idaho Walmart with BB guns they unboxed and removed from store shelves. This stands in stark contrast to the sloppy police work that resulted in the fatal shooting of a black man holding a BB gun he found unboxed at an Ohio Walmart. Those officers were not charged, although surveillance video shows them open fire almost immediately upon spotting 22-year-old John Crawford holding the toy weapon while talking on his cell phone. Officers in Idaho found the pair had already left the store by the time they arrived, so they set up a perimeter and managed to take the men into custody without further incident. Similarly, police in Louisiana used “minimum force” to arrest a self-described “sovereign citizen” who allegedly threatened city officials in a water bill dispute. Officers said Brandon Gibbs, who is white, was wearing body armor and armed with a knife and pepper spray when officers served an arrest warrant, but police talked to him until he could be subdued. That’s good police work.

Deputy Chris Behnam helped brighten Christmas for a Florida woman who was ripped off when she bought a disabled iPhone off Craigslist. The Jacksonville sheriff’s deputy investigated the case but determined no laws had been broken, so he offered to buy the nonworking phone from her and have it repaired. Behnam’s supervisors wouldn’t allow the deputy to purchase the phone, however, but he returned to the family with $100 cash, some toys, coffee, and books. “(This is) a man who puts his life on the line everyday for us, who isn’t jaded or difficult,” said Autumn Beardsley, a single mother of two autistic sons. “Perhaps we need more stories of when the police get it right, like Chris Behnam did.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/...b-of-protecting-you-in-trigger-happy-america/

 

^Yep.

I didn't hear him mention it, but the for profit prison system paired with the War on Drugs is a huge part of the problem. You have two systems that work hand in hand to profit from people's lives. There can be no justice in a system that financially benefits from imprisoning people. Then you factor in that the CIA brought crack into the country to fund their operations in Cuba in the 80s and you get a clearer picture of how this is a systemic problem perpetuated deliberately. The police's role on racist profiling might be the least of the problem in that whole system.