To Serve And Protect

And by the way guys I know this is a really contentious argument and I appreciate that we can have a discussion without getting too worked up. I respect both of your opinions (everyone's opinion here) so I'm glad we can talk about this issue without getting heated.

 

As I said, this really isn't about Brown just like the LA riots weren't about Rodney King. they are just putting faces and names to a problem.

And regarding the videos I posted, situations leading up to those shootings happen regularly. The difference is the cops are more likely to shoot first if you are black rather than say "put the gun down" or some other kind of warning. In both those videos they shot first. That is why black people are saying our lives are not as valuable. Why should it be acceptable for race to have any kind of play in a killing?

 

And I appreciate you guys too. We need to talk about this kind of thing. Keeping it in doesn't help anyone see the other side of the argument. I'm so glad we can get back to respectful disagreement and debate that we had lost at CL.

 

Wilson explained why he didn't go for his baton, mace, or taser. He said he had his hand on Mike Browns forearm, trying to keep him from hitting him again. Left hand was on the forearm, right hand was shielding blows from the other fist. He said he was hit twice and felt one more blow could knock him out and reaching for the other weapons would have meant releasing Browns arm, which he did not feel he could do and avoid another blow. Gun was only option -- on his right side.

Once he had shot Brown (twice??) at close range and he ran off, I'm thinking the other options are available, but I don't know what police training / protocol is in that situation. He said Brown stopped, turned back and ran at him. He shot several times, hitting him at least once, and then the final, fatal blow. Would a taser or baton been a better option at that point? I would guess that they were.

 

I agree with you on those 2 video's, particularly the walmart one. That was just crazy.

 

That's a fair point and one that is cause for debate absolutely, but it doesn't justify the wanton destruction of a town either. I think we ended up making two sort of separate arguments there. I don't disagree that race affects actions. I do disagree that it's primarily a "black" thing though. I think it's more of a demographic/class thing. I grew up next to a poor, predominantly white and Hispanic town and those citizens were treated with the same "shoot first" mentality. I think it has to do with the demographic of the area and that in the areas you showed, the poorer citizens are generally black and therefore there's a history there of blacks being more prone to lashing out. In my area there were whites that were treated the same way because they were from a poor area and cops didn't take chances with them. Trailer Park Trash I believe is the term. I think more often than not, it's about financial class not necessarily color, but that's the lens I see through because of where I grew up.

I understand the desire for change and the desire for a revolution in police perception of minorities (or in my argument poorer citizens). But there's ways to protest that don't involve lighting someone's building on fire. There's ways to protest without damaging private property. There's ways to protest without destroying businesses in your community and THAT is why I find this business unacceptable.

Put down the pitchforks and torches and find more constructive ways to protest. Social leaders go to these situations and stir up trouble and incite mobs and it's unfortunate.

 

I don't get the argument honestly. If I draw the gun, the fight is over because who rushes a guy with a gun? If you're peaceful, the gun goes away and nobody gets hurt. If I were a cop and I saw someone running at me, my first instinct is probably the tazer but if I'm particularly threatened and I want to really end the fight before it begins, I draw my gun and tell that person to stand down.

This kid rushed a cop and started hitting him and trying to take his gun. It's a life and death situation at that point and I don't blame the cop one bit for pulling the trigger. The alternative is letting Brown get the gun and maybe you are the one who gets shot and dies and even worse, Brown could kill others with the weapon. It's easy to wonder why he didn't just get the tazer out, but I think it's similar to trying to judge an athlete on a last second decision that loses a game. Hindsight is 20/20 and in this case it comes down to the fact that Brown was going for the gun and you simply cannot go for the gun.

 

I think the poor demographic has higher police shooting rates among all ethnicities. But not as high as black poor shootings, and once you get out of the poor class and into the middle class, blacks are still being treated like we are a violent threat when other ethnicities are given the benefit of the doubt. Listen to the news. People get killed every day. The statistic is much higher for blacks of all socioeconomic backgrounds. I don't like to play the article posting war, but I wanted to post this because it gives specifics that are important in understanding where I'm coming from:

 

This is the kind of thing we would know if they had just thought this killing was worth a closer look and indicted the officer. Without an indictment, we're all just speculating

 

After following those two links I didn't see anything that made me think that blacks had it far worse than Hispanics or other minorities. I'd say the difference is fairly slight. I'd say the general tone that blacks and Hispanics were treated differently than whites is true, but the differences between blacks and Hispanics isn't all that great.

The second link takes you to a long article that highlights the fact that more blacks are pulled over than whites, but the number isn't astronomical. Blacks were record 13% of the time in their last encounter with the police. Whites and Hispanics tied for second with 10%.

The first link says blacks were more likely to be threatened with violence than whites or Hispanics, but didn't give the percentages behind the claim. I tend to think it's true.

Again following the links for the part where it says wealthier blacks are also killed:
- The woman in Riverside was apparently unconscious in her car when the cops approached. They broke into her car to try to check on her and she apparently reached for a gun she had in or near her lap. They shot after she reached for the gun. Again, this is one of those cases where I feel like once weapons are involved, cops don't have a ton of options and I don't fault them for fearing for their lives. Unfortunate, but the link doesn't provide a ton of details.
- The Hollywood death was caused because the cops had received a noise complaint and were investigating. The actor they shot pointed a "costume gun" at them (it was Halloween) and they reacted. Again, another instance where I don't necessarily blame the officer for it. Would the cop have pulled the trigger so quickly if the actor wasn't black? I don't know. I would like to think it wouldn't make a difference.

I understand your argument though. There seems to be a trend where that trigger gets pulled more quickly if you're black than if you're another race. I think that is probably likely, but I still tend to believe it's about poverty and the areas you're in more than just the race. Those two cases don't necessarily scream to me racism. Cops are trained to not take chances with guns. I know one was an actor and the other a woman in their car, but these are people trained to deal with guns pointed at them every day. It's easy for us to say they shouldn't pull the trigger, but we're not the ones who have weapons pointed at us constantly. Again, that's because of where I grew up though. It's just the way I see it. Race is certainly part of it, but I think class is something some people don't take into account in these situations. Not you, just the general public. We're very quick to point to race as being the primary issue when I would think in this day and age, it's usually not.

 

I don't agree with that though. Even if I'm Bruce Lee, there's a chance another person has a shot at grabbing a weapon off of my belt. I'd rather take that possibility out of the equation all together.

 

Question: For those that believe blacks and hispanics are treated as inferior by white people and / or the police: why aren't Asians treated this way? Very serious question, because I see Asians come to America with NOTHING and within a couple years they are thriving (above the level of White people). Very little trouble with the police.

 

Eh it depends on the area. There's some pretty nasty Asian areas, but for the most part I think it's a cultural thing. I think as a culture Asians are more mindful of authority. They're usually raised strictly and with a heavy sense of respect for elders/statesmen.

There's been a long brewing culture of mistrust between minorities and cops made all the better by Gangster rap and the like. Personally, I haven't seen a ton of discrimination at myself outside of a few bad apples. I'm half Hispanic and half Hawaiian/Filipino. Not a ton of discrimination, but I grew up in a decent area adjacent to a trailer park full of not as decent people. That's why I'm more apt to find class-ism than racism to be the cause of distrust.

 

I agree.

 

I think we agree more than we disagree. We just disagree on the severity of racism vs. economic factors.

 

Yeah it seems that's where we've come to an impasse my friend. Good discussion.


I think we can all agree though that the poor citizens of this town shouldn't have their homes and shops destroyed. I feel for the businesses being looted in the name of justice.