Star Wars Thread (a Galaxy Far Far Away) Obi-Wan Movie In The Works! (36)

I don't know that you should do any of those things! I think it's okay to admit that there have been mistakes made and focus your attention on what it is about SW that you enjoy. No one can take that joy away from SW fans. We'll always have our memories, the original trilogy, our favorite works after that. And we'll even have some pleasant surprises - for me, Rogue One was one.

I wonder what you think is different about you (and Weezy) and me. I think that SW, Dune, and Middle-Earth are the three greast fictional worlds ever created. I've played SW Battlefront (four of them - that might be all of them) repeatedly, maxed out my level playing online, beat KOTOR 1 and 2. I've played the SW tabletop RPG. I've watched all the animated series, too (even though I can't really enjoy Rebels). I choose to ignore the Luke plot in recent films. I do think it weakens his character. But if it's a history of a different world, why can't it be someone's take on that world? Some are saying that Luke did such and such, but perhaps he didn't. If things have been retconned, they can be retconned again.

I think you missed the part where I said that I read all the Bond books. They do connect. The films don't, and I'm okay with that. I can see them as different works. I honestly believe most of the books are better than all of the films. Daniel Craig's films have the tone most similar to the books. There's a lot of brutal heartache and short, clipped writing. I strongly recommend them. But I can read a book and enjoy that iteration, or watch a film and think that it wasn't very good (like Broson, again), even though Golden Eye the videogame was one of the greatest games ever. haha

Similarly, I can enjoy different Sherlock Holmes stories. I've read all the Doyle stories. Clearly, some of the films attempt to continue or tell that story. Others are retconned. It's not different.

The same thing goes for Conan the Barbarian. I've read all the stories written by Robert E. Howard. Then others started writing. I enjoyed de Camp's and Carter's work on Conan. I enjoyed Robert Jordan's work, too, as a Conan writer. I love the first two films. I mostly ignore the TV series and Aquaman film. Sometimes those writers made efforts at continuity. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they retconned things.

I also read a ton of awful and some very good SW novels - and only some of them connect. I'm personally bummed that Karen Traviss's work isn't canon, but it's so good, I recommend everyone read it. Even if there never was a Badan Jusik, he's one of the coolest SW characters ever. Even if Fi never had his TBI, he's an awesome storyline. I don't like to dump on other authors, but the most famous of the SW novel writers put out pretty much garbage as a product. I wouldn't reread any of those, and I wouldn't recommend them. Oh, I'd also recommend the Sword of the Jedi. That was a great novel. The new Ahsoka novel was solid, too.

I have complex thoughts about Dune, too. I watched the Lynch film before I read the book. I've now read all the Herbert books and watched all the miniseries and all the films. I think the two best things in the Dune universe are Lynch's film and Herbert's last novel, Chapterhouse: Dune. Things don't always match up, but I can find things to enjoy in many of those works. For me, the political intrigue is less interesting than the way of life of the peoples described in the Dune universe.

I liked SW because of what it was, too. It can still be that. But maybe you thought the character was different from what they really were. Maybe we all did - we clearly did about Vader. And that was okay.

This last point (in bold) is a really good one. It speaks to a difference in mindset of some fan groups. Some saw the epic victory as the cosmic win of good over evil. But that seems pretty unrealistic. Why wouldn't a new evil arise? BTW, I'm sure the most important victory in all of SW is Vader's turning from the darkside - not the defeat of the Empire.

That said, the new films are different in some key ways from the earlier films. They do more fan service for children (though the Ewoks started that trend; at least with the droids, they were rarely there JUST to be marketing devices, as far as I know). There's a more relativistic view - there's not obviously good and evil on the cosmic scale. There are no absolute victories now (though perhaps there never were). There is a lot of doubt even among the wise people (but, honestly, this began with Yoda in the original trilogy).

My point is that SW has done some garbage, some really good stuff, and a lot of okay stuff. It's always been the worldbuilding for me and the Vader arc that made the series what it was. The films were never well-written and never well-directed. They succeeded because of the compelling story (Lucas admits it's just the hero's journey that appeals to most people, across cultures), amazing effects, and showing fans something they hadn't seen before. If I get to the point where SW bothers me so much it's literally awful and nothing can save it, I hope I can step back, clear my mind, and regain perspective.

 

That's it though. I think there are a lot of people that enjoy Star Wars for the lasers, the space ships and the action sequences. For me, those are just ancillary characteristics of the universe. The heart is the hero's journey of Luke Skywalker. It's the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker to where he fulfills his prophecy. By undoing those things in the story, it undoes the very foundation of what I (and millions of people) love about Star Wars.

The books connected to each other, but it's a different story than Connery's Bond. Then a new story starts with Moore's Bond, and on down the line. They are different and distinct takes on the same character, much the same way we've had 4 different versions of Batman on screen. No one is under the impression that Ben Affleck's Batman once fought the battles that Christian Bale's Batman did. Christian Bale's Batman fights the Joker, and it's clearly not supposed to be alternate camera angles or deleted scenes from Keaton's fight with the Joker. It's a new story told a different way.

The difference with Star Wars is the first 6 movies are a complete story. If someone would have come in and retold that story with different actors, that is a more apples to apples comparison. What we are seeing in The Force Awakens isn't a different take on our beloved characters. It is those same characters and what happens next. It takes place in the same continuity. When Brosnan finishes his final movie as Bond, we aren't being told that Craig is the same guy and they just recast him mid-story like they recast Rhodey in Iron Man. The Luke Skywalker in The Force Awakens IS the same Luke that was celebrating on Endor. It's even the same actor that has gotten older.

The Star Wars novels are a different thing for me. I read more than I could probably recall sitting here. But nobody considered those as canon in the same vein as the movies (or even the Clone Wars TV show that Lucas worked on intimately with Filoni). Lucas didn't really consider them canon and he had no problem stepping all over anything he felt like in his projects. To me, those were fun little side stories on par with "What if" type comic book runs.

Obviously a new evil would rise, but where this is a problem in the new Trilogy is it isn't a "new" evil. It is the Emperor with Storm Troopers and a Death Star...err...Star Killer base. The Emperor has another Skywalker in black doing his bidding. It's the same evil as before. Anakin didn't bring balance to the Force. He failed to kill The Emperor. Luke, Han and Leia didn't destroy the Empire, they simply slowed it down to where it had to lick it's wounds for a bit and come back.

There's nothing wrong with bringing a new evil into the picture. Of course a new one would arise. But this isn't a new one. It's the same one. They could have had the Yuuzhan Vong (or whatever equivalent Disney wanted to create) come in 30 years later. It's a new and unique threat that doesn't cheapen the Original Six movies and make all the sacrifices made meaningless. Heck, there is an argument to be made that the galaxy would have been better off if the Rebellion never happened. Starkiller base wouldn't have incinerated several planets if everyone was behaving well for the Empire.

The reason Star Wars cannot be what it is, and why it will have to rely on fan service is Disney is a corporation. There can't be any absolute victories because they have keep the war going. Lucas didn't have shareholders to answer to. Disney will continue to milk it until it is no longer profitable. It's why I gave up. I know it will only get worse.

 

I see. I thought you hadn't give up on SW and that was why it's bothering you so much. I thought you'd just continued to gouge at an old wound!

But if you've given up, that's fair. Then your position and mine aren't much different. I watch them and I'm willing to give them a look on their own merits. But I don't lose sleep over them.

BTW, if Lucas could be involved in things and not see them as canon, then why can't Disney be involved and not see them as canon? i'm not sure discussions of canon (for artifacts) have ever been especially good for humanity.

 

Well, I think in these stories canon is somewhat important in order to maintain audiences. The average movie goer isn't going to be up to speed on what is canon and what isn't if it is being decided via press releases. I think most would assume that if an event happened in a movie they saw, and the same cast was still present in the new movie, that the said event is in the history of the new movie. Without established plot points and story beats, all meaning and stakes in a story go out the window due to the ability of the writers to haphazardly change things on the fly.

 

This video tears the Obi-Wan writing to shreds.

 

That's something we can test.

https://www.statista.com/chart/2030... part of the,billion in today's ticket prices.

SW Episodes Box Office, adjusted for inflation
IV made 3.3B
V made 1.9B
VI made 1.4B
--
The most successful trilogy for SW, but those films also had multiple releases and 30+ years to build those numbers. Note the gigantic drop between IV and V. And VI is less than 1/2 of IV.

I made 1.9B
II 1.1B
III 1.3B
-smaller start, smaller drop

VII made 2.3B
VIII made 1.4B
IX made 1.1B
-intermediate start, smaller drop than the original trilogy. Grossed more than the second trilogy.

So, a few things - the most recent trilogy has actually grossed more money, adjusted for inflation than the second trilogy. It seems like people who pay to see the movies are...

a. figuring it out
b. still going to see the movies

 

It's hard to really compare the numbers. Episode VII was the hit that it was because of the previous movies and the promise of the return of our beloved heroes. The fact that it lost over half it's audience by Episode 9 is worrisome.

The Disney marketing/synergy machine is on a different level. It's ability to create FOMO is unmatched. Look at the MCU. Before the MCU, the general trend with movies was the first one would make the most money, and then the following movies would have drop offs. Disney reversed that trend with almost every single Marvel property. I think the fact that Disney had Part 9 and the conclusion of a 40 year saga making the least amount of money is worrisome for Star Wars future. Also, because streaming services never release viewership numbers unless they are massive, it's tough to gauge the interest in the shows. But Google trends for the weekend of Obi Wan's released had it way behind Stranger Things and Top Gun Maverick. I can't imagine a show starring Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan with Darth Vader not being the biggest thing going if it was 10 years ago. Now it's a distant 3rd behind another TV show and a sequel to a 36 year old movie.

It's all speculation, but eventually Disney will run out of beloved characters Lucas created to jangle in front of audiences and they will have to create new characters that can stand on their own.

 

How many franchises can sustain a viewership over 9 films? What's most clear is that many of the people who are watching the films now are not the same people who were watching the films 40+ years ago. New audiences, similar trends (successful first film after a break, viewership declines over the trilogy). Remember - Episode I lost more than half its viewership by Episode III, too. In fact, it lost almost half its viewership by episode II. Endgame was the end of that story line. The best comparison there might be Episode III - which was a similar disappointment (more than 50% loss compared to I).

Really? "A sequel to a 36 year old movie" is basically what Star Wars.

Anyway, that seems a false narrative about Obi Wan's success:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/t...s-obi-wan-kenobi-premiere-ratings-1235159722/

I agree! That's all speculation. It seems like the Mandalorian and Grogu are characters almost as beloved as any others to come out of Lucas Film. So, they've done well with that series.

 

This video brings up an interesting phenomena. It brings up two different people, people trodgers and I sort of hinted at in our discussion. There are people who are "loyal" to the story of Star Wars. People who find the enjoyment in it because of the journey it takes them on. Then there are other people who are loyal to the brand. If it says Star Wars, they'll watch/buy it. Kind of makes me think of the woman who is dedicated to a certain brand of purse, and they'll buy some bag that looks like it belongs in a bowling alley because it has the brand they are loyal to. The company Disney themselves has a very loyal fanbase. There are people (I'm sure you've seen them) who have like 200 Disney bumper stickers on their car.

Star Wars is as much of a brand as it is a story to a lot of people.

 

I just can’t get over how bad this show is. Obi-Wan was probably the best, if not most consistent character in the prequels. People love him, they love Ewan. They got Hayden back, and for what? 4 episodes in and we’ve seen him in a tank in heavy makeup and from super far away as a hallucination in a hooded cloak. How do you bring him back and not do clone wars flashbacks?

This is for me the most disappointing Disney Star Wars show yet, and right up there close to Rise of Skywalker as the worst of all. Just so horribly written, canon breaking, “who is this even for” show. Like what is this story, why did it need to be told, how are these characters expanded upon in any meaningful way telling this story? If they wanted to make the Young Leia show they just should have, and I wouldn’t have watched, instead of calling this Obi-Wan Kenobi and baiting me in. Absolute garbage show.

 

"who is this even for"

It's for Disney+ in order to add content to improve the "value proposition" for itself as a must-have streaming service. This was never about having a story to tell. This was about being able to say, "Disney+ has all this brand new, exclusive Star Wars content!"

 

Yeah. Episode 5 was easily the best of the batch.

 

Yes, it was horrible. Canon breaking, nonsensical, embarrassingly bad writing. The fights are also filmed poorly. This video covers a lot of my thoughts

 

I'll be honest. I don't watch Star Wars anymore, but the amount of content it creates in the Youtube criticism realm is astounding. I actually hope Disney keeps this up because if it was quality, I'd get a half hour to 45 minutes of entertainment and then I'd be satisfied to wait until the next episode. With them going down this route, I can watch the critiques for hours having never watched the show and laugh.

 

Whoa. A Kingsama sighting!