Star Wars Thread (a Galaxy Far Far Away) Obi-Wan Movie In The Works! (36)

Spoiler

So as time goes on, I think (hope) you'll appreciate some of the answers to your questions the way I've come to appreciate them. You're part of the club now: this movie has a TON to unwrap and a TON to settle. It's not an easy pill to swallow.

I have come to LOVE Snoke's death. Why? Because it's new, it was surprising, and it gives Kylo a refreshing and new story. He is no longer a "Vader wannabe" and he's a full fledged "villain" which is something we just haven't quite gotten yet. Where does he go from here? He's embraced the darkness in him more than any Skywalker before him. How does he end this? THAT is an interesting story.

I've read a number of Rian's interviews after the movie and I think much of what you say is true, but it's not that they don't have a vision, it's that they want to keep things new. The Force Awakens was very, very much like A New Hope, so how do you keep things fresh when they're so close to the original? Send the characters on different arcs. Vader isn't going to be redeemed. Obi-Wan/Yoda aren't going to save the day. The Emperor isn't going to play a big role in all of this. The story is going to stay fresh and I think that's really important, especially for the EIGHTH movie in the franchise. It's hard to swallow at first, but after two watches and a few days of digesting, I'm 100% on board now.

As for complaints on Luke's death, I totally agree. I felt like if you were going to kill him, why not give it more weight on the Kraitt instead of killing him from afar? Rian's response was something along the lines of: Han's death was harsh and traumatizing. He wanted Luke's death to be peaceful. I still don't necessarily agree with the decision, but I get it. I also agree that Luke should come back as a Force ghost at least once to give Rey some advice in a moment of crisis. That's an old trope sure, but it's one that services the greater series.

I also agree that Carrie Fisher's death is forever going to rob us of the emotional ending of the Kylo/Leia relationship. We saw him hesitate in Episode 7 and 8 and there's clearly still a connection there to his past. I'm honestly guessing they're going to have a voice actor take her role and kill her without showing her. Perhaps early in the movie Kylo takes out a ship with his mother on it, ultimately fulfilling "burying the past".

Honestly when I left the theater I had the same reaction you did. I had this movie lower on my list, but when it's all said and done I love the direction they're taking this. This movie is shooting up my Star Wars rankings.

 

Spoiler

That is a common complaint. It's like Rian read the cliff notes version of Episode 7. Luke point blank says he didn't want to be found and went to the most unfindable place imaginable...yet the ENTIRE PLOT of Episode 7 was to find the map to Luke. Part of which was in the droid that was with Luke when he went into exile, likely meaning he put it in there. And Rey is nobody? I mean, I'm not upset she's nobody (I've voiced my opinions about why I don't care about her character and think she's possibly the laziest, worst character in all of Star Wars), but the novelization of Force Awakens (canon) makes it clear Kylo knew of her BEFORE any of this stuff took place. And the opening scene in Force Awakens takes place on Jakku where there is a man holding the map...weird coincidence.

There are more, but whatever. I'm sort of over complaining about this movie because it destroyed my fandom in Star Wars in general. I've been going Christmas shopping the last few days and I haven't gone over to the Star Wars section once. Not because I'm having a rebellious, shake my fist at the man moment. But because I just don't care about the saga anymore. I don't care about ANY of the characters whatsoever. I'll see Episode 9 because I've seen the first 8 and read books and watched TV shows. But there are no interesting characters left. Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but she is basically handed everything. Everyone says Kylo is sooo strong, but I don't see it at all. Poe is a freaking traitor that would likely have been executed for the crap he committed in this episode. Finn and Rose essentially just ransacked a city while taking the time to take in a "horse" race as the Resistance ship was running on fumes. They repeatedly say "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." After seeing this movie a second time, I have little doubt that there was a dual meaning to that directed from Disney to older Star Wars fans. They are saying, "This belongs to us now. We are going to ignore and change the rules to this universe, continuity be damned. Get on board or get out of the way and let us sell toys."

 

I literally woke up with this movie on my mind today, and I feel more positive as I have stewed on it.I NEED to see it again, there is so much going on and I was so excited and hyped up that it’s hard to notice every detail. I spoke with my stepfather about it after I saw it and he pointed out things that I had completely missed. This movie is going to require multiple viewings, and that’s a good thing. What I also think is a good thing, is Rian Johnson. I believe SW needed him to come in and shake things up, it is the only way to break out of the box SW is sort of stuck in. Fans can be mad all they want, start petitions to have this movie struck from canon, but it’s not gonna do a thing, SW has to evolve and expand.

 

Spoiler

I understand this point of view, I genuinely do. I’m not even going to argue against it, because it’s your right to have. I was down after this one, in large part because it was hard to see Luke Skywalker portrayed this way, a broken man who almost murdered a kid. And while ultimately he did the right thing in the end, he still dies alone on that island, no Jedi order rebuilt, no like..wife or kids himself, such a sad thing to me. Rian Johnson said he thought that ending was beautiful and now will inspire the legend of Luke even further, but it stings for me. Hell, even Hamill said for his own acting, he had to make up a Luke backstory in his head that he had a wife and a child and the child accidentally killed himself with a lightsaber, which is why Luke is how he is. It’s possibe it was a mistake on my part to watch Episodes 1-7 and Rogue One all week before going to see this, because that was the Luke I knew and loved, it was fresh in my mind (ROTJ Luke rules) and this was not that man and it was hard to see

I’ll only address the bit about Rey and Jakku from my personal perspective. I expected Rey to be a “nobody”, they brushed off every question of who she was too much. It’s possible she originally was someone different, but for JJ to irgnore stuff from the novel kind of tells me something. Then again it’s still possible that Snoke manipulated both Rey and Kylo to see false things, as Kylo didn’t turn good, so maybe what he saw of Rey’s parents wasn’t true. That cave scene with the hall of mirrors thing sure was weird as hell.. If Rey is a nobody I saw it as an echo of Anakin. A boy born into slavery, mother a nobody, lives on a desert planet and longs to get out. That’s how I took it anyway, that it wasn’t a coincidence Poe came to Jakku where the map was and BB-8 ended up with Rey, but that it was the will of the force. Same as Qui-Gon finding Anakin, same as the droids stumbling into Luke’s life. So that part wasn’t an issue for me as much as some other things were.

My biggest issue remains something out of anyone’s control, the death of Carrie. I just do not see how you can finish 9 without Leia, she is essential to this story, it is her son that is the supreme leader now. She is the only one he had opportunity to kill and didn’t, she is the key to any redemption from him and the only heart of the films left for me with Han and Luke gone. If they don’t recast her in 9, then we sure as hell better get a ton of force ghost Luke.

Minor personal disappointment, Episode 3 remains one of my favorite SW films, would still love to see a force ghost young Anakin. I mean it’s changed in the special editions, we know Kylo has spoken to him from 7, give Hayden one scene, I want more quality prequel connectivity. I know I’m probably alone in that one as most hate Hayden, but still. There were some really nice prequel references in this movie though, appreciated that.

 

Spoiler

Actually it's a minor issue as well that Kylo worships Anakin so much. Anakin turned back in the end. If he spoke to Anakin, wouldn't Anakin tell him he was f***ing things up?

 

Spoiler

Well, the early concept art was of a force ghost Anakin fluctuating between light and dark, which I am glad they scrapped, because to me that’s stupid. But Anakin IS a force ghost, so selfishly it would have been really cool to see him speak with Luke at least. The real Anakin speaking to his son. It’s not a complaint, it’s just a minor personal disappointment. I’d love to see Hayden get the chance to do one small scene directed by someone who doesn’t give him garbage dialogue and he gets to come across as a human being and prequel haters can get one good moment of the guy to kind of ease their hate. I think it would help mend some wounds there, I dunno. I hope there’s still time actually, with Kylo on his own now, maybe Anakin could reach out to him to try and set him right, without Leia around it could carry some emotional weight the movie will lack. They should at least shoot something imo, and if it doesn’t work, or Hayden is bad, just scrap it. I just see an opening there. Han and Luke are gone. Leia is most likely gone. Ben has zero connection to Yoda or Obi-Wan. Only Anakin, his grandfather, has any ties to him now.

 

Spoiler

No I'm with you. I don't know if it was in the concept art, something I saw somewhere on the internet, or something we've talked about here but I really want to see a "Jedi council" of the Force ghosts we know. I thought it would have been an awesome scene to have Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and maybe Ahsoka/Qui-Gon even though they don't really know Luke all sitting around with Luke discussing the future of the Jedi and what Rey means. I think in the next episode, it would be a great opportunity to have her meet with Luke (and maybe Yoda) while Kylo talks to Anakin as a Force ghost. Both of these characters have been desperate for mentorship and this could be the natural progression.

I think that would hold tremendous emotional value, especially if Anakin tells him that what Kylo is doing is wrong. Kylo is a tortured character who has constantly struggled with his direction. Now he's doubled down on the Dark Side, can you imagine if he reaches out to his idol and his idol rejects him? Tells him he's doing the wrong thing and that in the end Anakin redeemed himself and came back to the light? I think that would throw him into complete confusion and despair.

 

Spoiler

They're handling of Luke (not the fact they killed him, I'm a big boy and can deal with that), is my second biggest point of contention (after the main one where they decided to ignore the first six movies establishing it takes years to learn how to use the Force where Rey learns in a week or two). Luke is a character that without a lot of Jedi training still feels compelled to go into the Lion's Den and face down the Emperor to try and turn his Father back to the light. Then after 25 years of gaining tons of wisdom through the Force and training his own academy, he has a moment of weakness where he wants to murder a teenager in his sleep and then shuts himself off. Luke didn't give up on his Father, yet he gave up on his nephew to the point where he also gave up on his sister, his friends (Han, Chewie, etc) and pretty much the entire galaxy. That wasn't Luke in Episode 8. I understand a character having flaws, but the Luke we knew and got to know over the course of 3 movies wasn't in this movie. And people saying Obi-Wan and Yoda did the same thing...no they didn't. They did a strategic retreat until they knew they could fight back. Quite different than closing yourself off from the Force and waiting to die.

People are saying the fans screaming about the movie are just mad cause it didn't go down exactly how they wanted it which isn't the case in most of the posts I'm seeing. People are mad because these decisions change the rules of the universe so it's convenient for Disney, and they destroy characters. This movie was a better executed movie than Episode 1 or 2, but this movie changed the Original Trilogy. Honestly, if you're just going to systematically kill off all the original characters and commit character assassinations on them, why not just make Episode 7-9 unrelated to the Skywalkers and set in the distant future?

 

I felt the same way last night, like I felt very strange and unsure after. Not saying anything will change for you, but the more I sit and think on the film and let it stew, the more and more I like what they did, and the more I realize some major choices they made and directions they went in were necessary for SW to grow beyond what it is. The movie is sort of a game changer, and I think that is one reason some fans hate it so much, though certainly not all, and there are plenty of valid criticisms of it. I really, really need to see it a 2nd time. Watching Collider’s 1 1/2 hour spoiler review of it, they continually pointed out things I did not see or notice at all.

 

@Savory Griddles , you and I still agree quite a bit about Luke, but this is at least some good quotes from Rian Johnson as to why he is how he is. It doesn’t fix everything for me, but it helps me understand some issues you raised in your last post.

http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-luke-lightsaber-scene-explained-rian-johnson/

 

Spoiler

I guess I get what he was thinking, but Luke didn't have to do what he did to take the Jedi out of the equation. He could have tried to fix his mistake by going after Kylo and Snoke, then retreated to that island to die. He essentially created and unleashed a rabid dog (Kylo) on the galaxy and instead of trying to put the dog back in it's cage, he screams and runs away and locks himself in his home and hopes someone else can take care of it. He admits that Kylo is powerful and will kill a lot of people, but instead of stopping it (as he might have been the only one who could if he would have acted right away) he let's the problem grow into a new Empire. I'm sorry. I just don't buy Johnson's explanation. Johnson decided to try and shock us at every turn whether the twist worked or not. "JJ's was too predictable? Predict this, b*****!"

 

In one of Collider's many Last Jedi videos I lost some respect for Mark Ellis and company where the essentially blamed the fans for doing all this speculating and then the speculation didn't come true. Meanwhile Jedi Council is pretty much one of the ringleaders of internet fan speculation.

I can't take what these guys say seriously when they were all nobodys and they are now being invited to world premieres. They aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them. You can tell by Harloffs initial disappointment, then about face because he "saw it a second time."

 

Spoiler

I’m sort of coming around on how it plays out though. Luke was the only Jedi that didn’t come from the prequel era Jedi temple times, he was trained briefly by a couple old Jedi, and then he was on his own. Yoda told him to pass on what he learned, the entire future of the Jedi order was on his shoulders, and he failed. I can understand why that failure, a repeat to him of the failure of Obi-Wan with Anakin, and Yoda and the rest with Sidious, drives him to think this just isn’t meant to be, that the galaxy is better off without the Jedi. A line I like more and more is when Yoda comes back and tells him failure leads to learning or growth, whichever it was. It’s then that maybe he fully understands and goes on to do what he does and save his friends while sacrificing himself. Another moment that as I dwell on more and more I find thinking is more beautiful and fitting and appreciate in the fact that he didn’t go out in a saber fight like everyone else and like we’d expect. His words about “what do you think I’m gonna do, take on the whole first order with a laser sword” were foreshadowing I didn’t even realize in the moment. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on anything, opinion is opinion, we like what we like, I’m still ruminating on all this myself. I like that this movie is so different that it has brought back real Star Wars debate though, and I’m so damn glad I had zero of it spoiled for me, it is THE first SW movie I watched not knowing the outcome. (Grew up with the originals as a small kid, don’t remember ever not knowing how they went, obviously we knew who lived and died in the prequels, zero drama there, had Han’s death spoiled for 7)

The more I think on Luke’s take on the Jedi and how at first I thought he was right, but then Yoda sort of set him straight, and even admitted to his own failures. Someone on the Collider crew I think pointed out that the Jedi order at their end HAD become dogmatic and arrogant and too involved in politics when they were probably originally just guardians of peace or whatever. This movie has sort of washed away the Jedi and Sith as we know them, Luke doesn’t want to continue it, Yoda knows it failed. But, Rey has those ancient books now, and they may be a major key to what the Jedi are truly about, and this may lead to a future we didn’t see coming. The film is flawed, of course, but I am liking more and more where it has taken things and the possibilities of where it all can go. At first I was down certain things didn’t go like I wanted, but more and more I am glad to have been so surprised. I’m very interested in Rian Johnson’s new trilogy, that’s for sure.

 

These guys aren’t my definitive source or anything, I often disagree with them, I just enjoy watching them because they are hardcore fans yet some of the most rational of all the channels out there. I didn’t mean to imply that listening to them made me change my mind on the movie if I did, only that they pointed out things, objects, clues, etc that I literally did not see during the movie, because it is so intense and there is so much going on. For me, that 2 1/2 hours flew by, it could have been 3 and I’d have been happy. I sometimes look at my watch during a theater movie to see if we’ve gotten to a lot of stuff I was hoping to see yet, and how much time is left for them to accomplish this or that, and first time I did with TLJ an hour had passed and I couldn’t believe it.

 

Great article that sums up my thoughts on the current state of Star Wars. There are spoilers in the article.

http://collider.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-problems-fandom-menace/

 

Spoiler

I read that earlier today and thought it was an awful article. This is certainly a divisive movie, and I get why a lot of fans are mad. I’M not trying to change anyone’s mind on it though, I think it’s fine to not like it, Disney is definitely doing some things to pave the way for the future and for making more piles of cash. The more I personally reflect on it though the more I like it overall and the more reviews I read and listen to the more I understand certain choices even if I don’t agree with all of them. I need to see it again, apparently I missed a lot of stuff that was right there, or foreshadowed and such. The more I think on Luke’s death the more I get it, even if I don’t love it.

I listened to Mr. Sunday Movies’ podcast on the movie today and he and the other guy discussing it made some really good points about why Luke didn’t phycally go to Crait. That had me stumped at first, but now I feel like it makes more sense. He couldn’t physically go there, he wouldn’t have lasted long in a fight with Kylo in his physical condition. But he could tap back into the force and use it fully to his advantage in a way never really seen before. He bought the Resistance time, and he added to his already incredible legend. He died peacefully tapped into the force and not physically fighting, and no one that hears about that battle will ever really know that. They’ll think he physically was there and did that, it’s really an amazing moment.

I get that killing him off was because acccording to Rian Johnson, his presence was too big for the new characters to fully take over the new trilogy in 9, but I’m still not sure I agree with or like that. There’s a kind of silly video on YouTube speculating if Hamill might have not known that Luke dies in this movie, and while I don’t think that’s possibe, it’s well made. Hamill is all happy before the premiere, and afterwords he’s next to Rian and he looks like his dog just died. They point out how vocal he’d been against what they did with Luke, and how we only see him die from behind, so maybe he didn’t film that scene. It’s highly unlikely, but interesting. Also saw Hamill quoted about talking to Trevorrow about 9 and what he had in mind for Luke before he was fired, so.. who knows. He’s got to be back for 9 as a force ghost though, right? He better be.

Completely unrelated note, I seem to be one of the only people on earth that didn’t think the Leia space flight was weird in the moment. I must have been caught up in it all or something, because when it happened I got the SW chills and was in that giddy awe, seeing Leia use the force was sweet to me. I guess it might look bad next viewing, but I dunno, it worked for me first time. Here’s the podcast spoiler review I listened to today by the way, I think it’s funny and they make a lot of good points. Some stuff they talk about like how Rian discarded a lot of what TFA set up (Kevin Smith’s review calls these “F*** you JJ” moments) I’m still going back and forth on. I liked being surprised, but some stuff I don’t know, think Rian went a little too far possibly. I do like how they point out that they like Rian bowing up JJ’s mystery box from TFA though, I hate that about JJ, setting up mysteries to which no answer can please every fan. They point out how the original trilogy was not about mysterious questions for the sake of it, the twists we got were not overall set up by questions they came naturally, mainly Vader being Luke’s father. Anyway, I rant

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-weekly-planet/id718158767?mt=2

And YouTube for anyone that doesn’t use iTunes

55:01 spoiler review begins in both