I honestly don't think that's what he meant with that "&". I simply took it as both Russell and Ingram are off the table for Butler, not that they are not willing to part with both, because I agree, that's too much to ask at this point in time. The Lakers aren't desperate and neither are the Bulls. But then it was reported that possibly only Ingram was off the table for Cousins, so you could be right in the end.
Giving up on a 19 year old after 4 months for a 2nd tier superstar player? Who won't make us a title contender right away? That's the kind of stuff Sam Presti did that cost OKC a dynasty. You will also notice the team that DIDN'T do those kinds of trades do to being impatient, are on their way to a 3rd straight finals appearance and more than likely their 2nd title. Yes, Curry and Klay were all on the table at some point in the last 4 years. Unless you are getting a LeBron or Durant, you don't make those kinds of trades. You stay in above mediocrity mode when you try to get a quick fix.
Move Lou, Nick, and Calderon for a first and 2 seconds. We'll have $30M in cap room and appealing picks. So we'll add Boogie and Butler, apparently.
Butler is solid. He's pretty much established that the last 3 seasons and has taken his game to a whole new level this season. Statistically anyways. He is a two-way player, solid character and pretty much a very good #2 on a title contender IMO. I say #2 because the last 2 seasons, the Bulls have been a middling .500 team. The season before the Bulls were a solid 50 win team but that team had Rose, Pau and still had Coach Thibs - and the team went 10-7 in the games Butler missed. I don't see him as "the guy" on a title contender. That's not to say Ingram definitely will be but IMO he is the highest upside player on the Lakers - and that's saying a lot given the amount of young talent on the team - and I hesitate to trade him this early in his career knowing how talented he is. Another thing to consider is Butler will be 28 in September, is owed more than 38 million the next two seasons after this and can hit free agency in 2019 if/when he opts out where he will be entering his age 30 season. Whereas Ingram is turning 20 in September and has 3 more years on rookie deal and won't hit free agency until 2020 entering his age 23 season. Huge difference in age/salary. Yet another thing is obviously Ingram for Butler won't work straight up due to salaries. So the Lakers will have to add something extra and who is to say the Bulls don't push for more *legit* additions on top of Ingram (i.e. not just random salary filler - worth noting is Calderon cannot be traded to the Bulls at the deadline, so he is out as salary filler). The Bulls are weighing multiple offers for Butler, so they have the power of leverage here. They may want Ingram but they could also want Ingram and then some. If I'm the Bulls, that'd be my angle. Obviously they'd start with Ingram and Russell, to which the Lakers say "No way Jose". Then the Bulls could try and incorporate a Gibson/Randle inclusion in there. They could push for picks. A lot of angles that could be worked. Maybe their absolute lowest "take it or leave it" offer ends up being Butler/MCW for Ingram/Clarkson. I think about that deal but boy would I hesitate..... Again, this isn't to say Ingram will be better than Butler or is even guaranteed to be as good as Butler is. I just think all things considered, a lot of me would rather stick with Ingram and develop him and have a potential stud for a really really really long time (and hopefully be a Laker for life - unlikely but *fingers crossed*) than trade him in a deal for Butler - knowing full well how good Butler is and not knowing how good Ingram will be.
Butler is already at his PEAK, where he hasn't taken the BULLS to the promise land yet. I'm not sure I would trade Ingram for Butler. I have very low expectation for this trade deadline. In honestly I don't think we will make any big moves. Maybe get a few 1st and 2nd rounders for Young and Lou.
Another point worth adding is Butler doesn't even make us a playoff team (or if it does we'd be Warrior/Spur fodder) in the next couple years. Unless it's Ingram for Butler with cap filler and we have another deal lined up for Paul George or something, we wouldn't be contenders within Butler's "prime" window. I'd trade Randle and Clarkson in a NY minute since neither have "star on a contender" written on them, but Ingram works better with the current timetable we're on than Butler. I think if you're the Bulls, there is no reason to trade him right now. Wait until the offseason when team's picks are locked in. What if the Boston pick (via the Nets) ends up at 3 and the Lakers keep their pick at #2 or even #1? Why not wait until after the lottery is decided? Then Chicago can ask for whichever pick is better plus a young filler piece. I'ts better for us too that way. Keeping the pick may allow us to use it and maybe Clarkson to land Butler, then use the late first we get from a Lou trade, Zu and Randle for Drummond. Drummond Nance Ingram Butler Russell I know Drummond isn't ideal, but that team is all around the right age and the pieces fit well. Defensively they could be stifling.
I'd call that a win actually. I'm good with that. I'm willing to trade the youngsters, but I'm not eager to do it for the wrong price.
I prefer this. I noted in an earlier thread that I'd rather the Lakers just trade Lou/Young for picks, free up PT in the rotation, hopefully keep their Top 3 pick and then go shopping in the summer for a "star" locked and loaded with a bunch of trade assets.
After reading all your posts, it's becoming clearer to me that trading our kids makes no sense. Julius/Russell's value, which will inevitably be higher in a couple of years, is too low to trade right now. Ingram/Zu have shown incredible upside which makes them untouchable imo. Nance is the type of high-energy player that any team would want on their roster, and I doubt we get equal value in return. I'd maybe move Clarkson because he's older and have shown signs that he's plateaued. Obviously any of the vets could go if it fills a need. So for me, it's back to square one. We're only going as far as the kids take us.
A key reason why I want to wait for the summer is because as much as I like Butler, I'd much much rather have Paul George and he isn't available right now but very well could be this summer. The Pacers are trying to acquire help for him to be competitive this season but if it doesn't work out, they may feel the pressure to go ahead and trade him as he'd be entering a contract year (since he can opt out in 2018). Add in Jeff Teague being a free agent, CJ Miles able to opt out and the timing may be right to just rebuild around Myles Turner. If the Lakers trade Lou for a 1st and keep their Top 3 pick, they could come at the Pacers with this offer this summer: Lakers trade: Randle, Clarkson, Black, the Top 3 pick and the 1st round pick acquired in the Lou trade. Pacers trade: George and Thaddeus Young The initial reaction is "Would the Pacers really trade George without getting back BI or DAR???" The Pacers would certainly push for their inclusion but if the Lakers hold steadfast, this package is solid in itself. Randle/Clarkson aren't chopped liver and attached are two 1st round picks, one of which is Top 3 that should net them either a replacement PG (Fultz/Ball/Smith) if they let Teague walk as a FA or a replacement SF (Jackson/Tatum/Isaac) for George. On top of also having their own 1st round and the Lou 1st rounder. If the Pacers wanted to reload, suddenly they are flush with young talent here and can look to move Monta, Big Al in separate deals. For the Lakers, look, if you can add George and not trade any of BI/DAR/Zubac, do it. Not much explanation needed. Young is also a viable addition as an athletic PF with range (39.6% on threes) adding the element of range to the frontcourt.
