The only way to settle this once and for all is for @D-Fish Man to spill the beans. The main excuse I hear for trading Russell was work ethic and or some sort of personality flaw. But, again, it’s possible there’s more we don’t know, because we seemed EAGER to dump him. I like how Brook Lopez continues to be left out the picture entirely though, he was really helpful moving this team toward more winning last season and as a mentor to the young guys IMO.
What I can take away from current management vs previous is that the former is better at signing FA's and the latter is better at making trades.
WTF? Is that a sarcastic post? The former management signed FAs Deng and Mozgov in the same offseason.
Oh christ...please make it stop! With all due respect Pete, but you need to stay in your lane. The cap stuff isn't for you bro. First off I agree that the way we handled TB and BroLo was wrong. The way we should have held Jules captive via restricted free agency, but chose not to was wrong.. but I guess that makes Rob/Magic better people than I am. Now if Pete wants to rewrite history, Kuz could have been had at 28 and if we think he doesn't make it there and we cheaply could have moved up, then what's stopping SA from doing the same thing? The bottomline is BK had the 27th pick for sale...if we didn't move on it, SA could have... and then no Kuz. Nets traded Moz for Dwight and then he agreed to a buyout giving up about 4.5m. That's still about 19m of dead cap on their books. Suppose we did the same, sparing DLo in the process and Dwight gave us back just as much in a buyout, then that's 26m that cuts into our cap space still. Sorry Pete, no room for Bron's max. Then Moz gets traded again to Orlando, but this time it was for Bismack on a similar deal. Again, if the object of the game is to create cap space for the summer of Bron, it wouldn't have. Let's say we stood pat and stretched/waived MozDeng... Then that's 14m in dead cap for the next 5 years. No possibility of 2019 free agency...it hurts us in absorbing AD into cap space as well, if necessary and not to mention, you still have DLo's 7m (9.7m cap hold for next summer as a restricted free agent) on the books. Oh and there is whatever Jules was going to cost us. What about just doing the JC/Nance trade ... Well that gains us net 12m in cap (Moe's contract cuts into a potential 15m). Renouncing Jules gets us another 12m in cap. Still that's 24m and not enough for Paula, let alone Bron. I guess the next step would be to stretch MozDeng and get our cap space to about 40m. Then we could have had Bron, but that's with 14m in dead cap, no Jules and no chance to add another max player either in 2018 or 2019. If DLo is the additional piece necessary to trade for AD, then still that's just Bron and AD. We have the potential to have a 2019 max guy to add to Bron and then trade for AD. So that's 3 stars vs 2 stars & dead cap for 5 years. What we know now is that Bron was willing to come alone and that Boogie's injury eliminated a potential 2nd max player we could have added last summer. But fans need to stop looking back and act like we f***ed up.... If half these armchair GMs had their way, we wouldnt be in position to potentially have 3stars in the fold same time next year. Y'all can do shoulda/woulda/coulda while I'll do still should/would/can.
If there aren’t the desired results, people get traded or fired. It’s happened in the past, it happens currently, and it will happen in the future. Championship organizations find their way back to the top, but in the interim, this basketball we have right now is garbage to watch. Fire or trade whoever you have to to get us back there soon please. Tired of the abomination.
Read my post again. I said the previous management was better at trades. (perhaps some confusion with the way I phrased former/latter) Mitch traded Kwamay for Gasol. He also got us Ariza, CP3, and Dwight via trades. We were rarely on the short end of a trade unless "basketball reasons."
I'm with Pete. And the idea that moz or deng had to be FULLY shed is flawed. There were more creative avenues possible, and getting to one max wasn't that hard. The mistakes were made when we got hellbent in two maxes without any under the table guarantees.
He said the former management were better at trades. Which I agree with, Mitch managed to flip some awesome deals. Ariza for Mo Evans, never forget.
But what's the guarantee that a max guy comes by himself in a buddy-buddy league (its actual news that Russ and Dame want to go after each other...really?!?)? We didn't know if Bron would come alone, when his history of free agency said otherwise. We didn't know that Mintz clients were such clowns. Also one full season on the job and it's already determined that the previous FO is better at trades. Uh, what's the object of getting a bad contract off your books? So mission accomplished. Here are some of the numbers for those interested: Let's say we stood pat into the "summer of Bron": Deng 18 Moz 16 JC 12.5 Jules 12.4 Zo 7.5 DLo 7 BI 5.8 Nance 2.3 28th pick (Kuz or Hart) 1.6 Zu 1.5 incomplete roster charge of 2 = 1.8 = 86.4m (with the salary cap set @ 101.9m, our cap space = 15.5m) 30%max = 30.6m, 35%max (like Bron) = 35.7m Renouncing Jules (but then increasing the incomplete roster charge to 3) gets a net 11.5m back in capspace for a total of 27m...still not enough for a max slot. Trading just Nance/JC and holding onto Moz/DLo (but then increasing the incomplete roster charge to 4) gets a net 13m back in capspace for a total of 28.5m...still not enough for a max slot. Stretching MozDeng's contracts so that about 14m per year for the next 5 years remain on the books as dead cap (but then increasing the incomplete roster charge to 4) gets a net 18.4m back in capspace for a total of 33.9m...which is enough for a 30%max player, but still not enough for a Bron max slot (we'd still be about 2m short). I know what you're thinking...we can trade Nance (or Zu) for an expiring and then just follow it up by stretching MozDeng during the "summer of Bron" and we'd more than make up for that 1.8m that we're short on...however that pesky incomplete roster charge would still cut into our net capspace by 900k, so in reality its 1.4m of capspace we would get back in dumping Nance's 2.3m....still not enough for Bron's max. As of right now, we have the possibility of adding a 35%max player (like KD) next summer AND trading all of our kiddies for AD. We also have the option of possibly adding a 30%max player (like Kawhi or Kyrie) next summer AND trading some of our kiddies for AD. In either scenario, we get 3 stars. Had we stretched MozDeng to spare DLo, that 14m of dead cap, prevents us from adding any max talent next summer via free agency and certainly prevents us from adding any combination of 3 max stars. Now consider that DLo is restricted this coming summer and will have a 9.7m caphold...consider that Jules's new contract would have cut into our capspace last summer and and moving forward. Had we spared Nance, his new contract would then kick in next summer as well. So adding a 2nd star via free agency is a no go for the forseeable future. Instead we would have to be at the mercy of another team trading their distressed star to us...and how'd that go the last couple times? But lets say we spared any combination of DLo, Jules, Nance and JC, and successfully traded a combination of our kiddies in an AD trade....but then it would be just Bron-AD, plus 14m in MozDeng's dead cap. You can forget any possibility of a 2nd tier star or max player joining that duo via free agency (dead cap, remember) or trade (used up nearly all or most of our assets in trading for AD, remember). Stretching MozDeng to spare some of our kiddies is not only irresponsible to our books, but it kills our star alignment. With a MozDeng stretch, at most we could get 2 stars (1 via free agency and another via trade)...but with our present books (5m of dead cap for 3 years), we have the possibility of having 3 stars (2 via free agency and 1 via trade). Also, on further review of how things went down, you begin to realize that both the DLo/Moz and JC/Nance trades were done to either get us Bron + a 30%max running mate or to fit in a 35%max player like Bron along with Jules (since we didn't have to renounce him to make that extra bit of space). I hope those Jules fans realize that management, at the very least, was hoping to keep dude for one more season. So bottomline: DLo could have been spared to bring in Bron, but our books would suffer for it, meaning no realistic shot at 2019 free agency shopping, meaning literally all we can depend on is another team willing to deal us their star (see Pritchard, RC Buford, Sarver here)...otherwise its the kiddies and Bron vs the dubs and yall really think we have a shot? (Don't answer that...of course yall will say yes, cause DLo/Jules yo!) Lastly, all you hindsight 20/20 and TL;DR peeps...go f*** yourselves haha.
Seems like people forget that "Ice in my Veins" DLO was not exactly killing it in the chemistry department. This is the guy who was so loved by teammates that he once sat down next to Lou Will who then got up immediately to go sit somewhere else. Of course that was after DLO's secretly recorded convo with Swaggy P about girls he was cheating on Iggy Azalea with appeared on You Tube. Immaturity that maybe shouldn't be that much of a concern in the long run? Maybe, but from your PG who is expected to be a leader? DLO got off on the wrong foot here in LA, he was a sacrifice most agreed with in consideration of future cap space.
think you can just cut here. they could have traded randle for an expiring and a pick or just let him walk, made the nance/jc move, and boom...you've got it. along the way, deng and moz could have each been broken into smaller bad contracts (i gave examples at the time, one was felicios) that would have been easier to move if necessary. the idea that moz or deng had to either be dumped in one big chunk or stretched is just a false premise. everything that follows it is tainted by this. i actually never wanted to cut deng or moz due to the dead cap (which we currently have!) you keep talking about. i wanted to get one star, then operate over the cap in perpetuity. our commitment to the open cap might have us miss the playoffs this year. funniest thing of all is that if this stretches to the 2020 plan, none of the moves were necessary! as for keeping russell or whomever cutting into our chances to get more allstars...look at what allstars have been traded for of late. russell's more likely to fetch a star than is cap space. which is why i advocated moving russell for a useful player (who can help you win AND be traded for better players later). people laughed at demar derozan, and up until the moment he was traded for kawhi, i said i'd trade for him. why? because he can actually play, and teams care about that. not "might be able to play really well in 3 years (when he'll be "overpaid" like derozan)" but can play...now. anyway, pete's point is that it's weird that people want to defend obviously bad moves. it's ok. we got lebron, and that's great. that doesn't mean everything was and is great. some stuff was bad and continues to be. we're in 9th.
Not that I'm too bothered in hindsight, but renouncing Jules and trading Nance/JC would leave us with roughly 40/41 million? Still leaving the MozLo trade available for another year.
My previous post was long, so I'm sure y'all missed it...but it's in there. For all the whining and moaning about driving Jules out and not wanting him here, if you trace how we maneuvered our cap it was to keep Jules and either have our 2max guys shave some off the top or let Jules walk and give the 2max guys their true maxes. That was an option we left till the summer for a reason, but Paula/Jules/Mintz didn't want any part of it. As for creating a max slot, a combo of Jules walking and a JC/Nance trade gets us there, but to that point have we ever seen Bron or a star player come alone? The potential to create a 2nd max slot was an option to give Bron or another max player last summer as extra incentive to sign. Also if DLo could fetch a star so easily, why hasn't BK done it yet? Wasn't Kawhi rehabbing in the NY area? Wouldn't SA be more receptive to trading Kawhi to an Eastern team like BK? BK had a combo of DLo, LeVert, Allen and Dinwiddie...why no action on Kawhi before the Toronto deal? Maybe they were thinking about their capspace max plan of 2019??? If that's the case, they have DLo and his caphold of 9.7m on the books as a restricted FA this coming summer. Maybe if they whiff on their 2019plan, they match any offer sheet on DLo and keep it moving. Kinda like how we intended to do for Jules...
why would u use dlo with nets? they want to keep dlo....and nets themselves could have 2 max deal upcoming this off season.....who did nets sacrifice for them to have 2 max? it only cost nets 2 2nds n buying out howard to get off of mozgov as for mintz situation, i really dont think magic did himself any favors with his back handed comments post dlo trade, talking bout all the things dlo didnt do or wasnt as a player here n of course the Randle mistreatment at season start
1. I don't think D'Lo turns into the player he is now if he stayed with the Lakers. His work ethic was questionable, and our young player development is not exactly something we can brag about right now. We're also discounting how much he struggled as a Net before now. Imagine if that happened in the LA spotlight we'd all be screaming "BUST." Clearly something about being traded changed his trajectory (whether its Kenny Atkison, or a wakeup call for Russell) that is making him play better now. 2. It was a signaling move. LeBron is less likely to come here if we have the bloated contracts of Mozgov and Deng preventing us from making moves. Just like how Kobe told Buss to fire Jim/Mitch to have any chance at signing LeBron, this was another public display to show him "Look, we care about winning now more than some long term plan to develop the kids." Hindsight is 20/20. But I don't think it was a bad move, given the situation at the time, and the fact that we had just drafted Lonzo.
You don't know that for sure. DLO's two seasons after his rookie season were injury-plagued. Including his last year with us and his 1st year in Brooklyn. It's easy to pin the "attitude" or "work ethic" tag on a player whose injured and unable to play at their best. He's played 49 of the 50 games the Nets have played so far this season. That's the best he's been health-wise since his rookie season.
