Lonzo Ball Discussion: PELICAN!

Discussion in 'NBA Discussion' started by OmarE, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    12,063
    Likes Received:
    31,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    he's gotten marginally better on offense (improved to 57% FT!), but he's in year 3 and is a 12/7/6 guy. his defense seems to have dropped off proportionally to his offensive improvement (both probably a product of playing for gentry). so, meh?

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html

    i know i don't want to deal with figuring out how to pay him while i'm trying to chart a course for a young team. yikes.
     
    sirronstuff, LTLakerFan and trodgers like this.
  2. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    604
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Offline
    2017 doesn't even fall into the category of his first four years.

    No one has said that AD isn't a good player.

    All I said is that his record the first four years was 41% BI's record the first four years will be 41% if they win 36 games... (getting doubtful with the recent losses but their schedule eases up a lot after mid march.)

    If you are going to throw the core's losing ways as an argument then I'm going to say this.

    Next season all BI needs to do is win 34 games to match AD's record in his fifth season. Does this current team have better players? Sure... but so does AD right now.

    No one questions AD's ability to win with LBJ... the question is whether he wins on his own. The core won with LBJ until he tore his groin.

    If Lonzo starts producing at 15/8/8 level... the equation changes again.

    If AD wins the title this season... the equation changes in his favor.

    Nothing is written in stone.
     
  3. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    604
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Offline
    Consider though if you take good care of him, then you have an inside track on LaMelo.

    That also has some value.
     
  4. BangBoomPow

    BangBoomPow - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    What do you hope to achieve by quoting their win rates? I don't get it. It's a team accomplishment and there are a lot of factors going into it. Stephen Curry's first four seasons = 42% win rate. What is your point and why do you compare their win rates rather than their individual talent? AD in his first four years: Better rebounder, defender, scorer, and more efficient player than Brandon Ingram. Can you dispute any of that?
     
    Juronimo, SamsonMiodek and abeer3 like this.
  5. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    604
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Offline
    I'm not the one that brings up the core's inability to win during these debates.

    BI will have won 41% of his games the first four years if the Pels win 36 games

    AD won 41% of his games.

    AD is a better all around player than Ingram. But it wasn't a one for one trade. If Lonzo starts playing well then it's a different situation. If he gets hurt or goes back to his bricking ways then it's another.

    It's funny how you keep bringing it back to a one for one comparison when it was a one for six trade.
     
  6. BangBoomPow

    BangBoomPow - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    It's funny you don't realize why comparing it to a one-for-six trade is irrelevant AFTER this season. Ingram will be getting paid the max which is over $30 million. We can pay AD $40 million this offseason. Where does it become a one-for-six deal after that? You're talking like Ingram has ten years getting paid $7 million per year. He's basically a free agent after this season. Who are the other five players who are such a game-changer to where you're saying is worth more than what we got AD for? Lonzo Ball and Josh Hart? Jaxson Hayes? I mean, what are we really talking about here? You act like we're giving up six NBA champions for AD.

    Lonzo Ball:

    [​IMG]

    Is he really playing much better than his first two seasons? You're making it seem like he is making a huge groundbreaking MIP case. He's gotten better, sure.

    Josh Hart, I like the guy but he's a replaceable player. We're not losing sleep over that at all.

    So we got the #4th pick in what many deemed is a weak draft. We weren't even supposed to get the #4 pick. Who did we exactly miss out on? I guess you can say the #4th pick saved us from giving up Kuzma... Who you have been on record disliking?

    I just don't see what math you are doing. The way I see it is, we traded away young assets who are more than a few years away from reaching their potential to grab a player who has reached a level of basketball that only very few will reach and who fits perfectly with LeBron. This six-for-one deal is tiresome. By the time Lonzo or the other picks become reach their peak, they will have to be paid high $ contracts. It's like this goes right through your head.
     
    Juronimo, tada, Kenzo and 3 others like this.
  7. BangBoomPow

    BangBoomPow - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    https://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_orleans_pelicans/

    Lonzo will also be a free agent after next season. If he keeps up his level of play, he likely receives a large contract as well. Should the Lakers pay $45-$50 million for Lonzo+Ingram or $40 million to AD? I think the choice is clear... Also, AD gave up money to try and help us compete this season. You talk about assets as if they can't be a liability as well. In a free agency such as 2021, you want to clear up as much cap space as possible to sign high tier players. Rob is doing exactly that. I'm glad we have a clean slate with only AD being a Lakers heading into that offseason rather than overpaying for Brandon Ingram and then being stuck with Lavar Ball still babbling in the news...
     
  8. Sentient Meat

    Sentient Meat - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    604
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Offline
    I'm not bringing up all the guys we jettisoned to clear space or to help LBJ make a last ditch effort to make the playoffs last year.

    It wasn't a good use of all our many assets.

    The good? AD, himself... the clever signings Rob made after Kawhi chose the Clippers... the potential to sign an elite next to AD if LBJ leaves at the right time. LBJ's own play has been terrific.

    I've praised those things many times during these discussions.

    The bad is losing that sheer volume of pieces if this doesn't convert into a title. The bad is if LBJ stays too long and the transition isn't smooth.

    I see your points... some of them are good.

    But there is some validity to my worries as well.

    I do have faith in Rob's judgment so far aside from the big trade... so I'm keeping an open mind... but when I see Ball come to life finally, it gives me pause
     
  9. BangBoomPow

    BangBoomPow - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I understand your concern but there are MANY teams who if they don't win a title, it would have been a failed experiment. Bucks, Boston, Clippers, Nuggets, Rockets. We aren't the only team that if we fail to secure a title, is put in a position of being worried about the future. You can't have it all. The best thing you can do is build your team and prepare them for contention and we have certainly done that. I wanted to keep Ball but Caruso has been very impressive as well. We need to be more optimistic than pessimistic since we went on seven years with a terrible joke of rosters...
     
    Kenzo, Cookie, LTLakerFan and 2 others like this.
  10. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    24,967
    Likes Received:
    64,641
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Unknown
    Offline
    3 point sniper in revenge mode

    :ShaqOh2:


     
  11. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    24,967
    Likes Received:
    64,641
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Unknown
    Offline
    I don’t want any Ball brothers or Lavar anywhere near this franchise. I’ll just be happy for him and his recent success. His shot looks better.
     
  12. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    24,646
    Likes Received:
    40,886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    So Cal
    Offline
    So much better. That had to have taken a lot of work to change from left shoulder to fairly normal looking right side shot.
     
    sirronstuff likes this.
  13. tada

    tada - Lakers All Star -

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    7,713
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I wish we could have kept Lonzo over Kuzma. Maybe they knew Kuzma was a scrub.
     
    trodgers likes this.
  14. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,873
    Likes Received:
    17,304
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    He's an average player on O and a below average on D. Good pick for where LA got him, but no one around the league is interested in him.
     
    Kenzo, abeer3 and tada like this.
  15. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    12,063
    Likes Received:
    31,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    i don't know where the narrative came from that we tried to hold kuzma out of all trade talks. i think we've been shopping him since last deadline and nobody bit--at least not for what we wanted in return.

    also, i truly believe that if kuz were playing for NO, he'd be averaging 20ppg and 6 or 7 rebounds on reasonable efficiency. still a minus on d.

    and had we kept lonzo, his physically and mentally fragile a** would still be shooting sub-50% from the line and probably would have kept his whack-a** shooting form.
     
    trodgers and Kenzo like this.
  16. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,873
    Likes Received:
    17,304
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    LA has chosen solid talents and has done a terrible job of developing them. Part of that is the bright lights and heavy, heavy pressure. Part of that is the front office and management. I agree with you. Kuz's greatest ability is his scoring, but his efficiency has been average to (this season) poor. He might be able to put up 20 a game in NO, and if he did it shooting like he did in his first two seasons, that would be fine. But teams are just not interested in him, and I fully understand why. His salary for next season is a good rate, but what about after that? What's market value on a player like that?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-projections/kyle-kuzma/

    Would you give him $8m a season?
     
    abeer3 likes this.
  17. tada

    tada - Lakers All Star -

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    7,713
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I don't know, at least with Lonzo you have some attributes that you could build on, like his passing and defense. At worst he's a very solid role player. I'd prefer him as a backup PG over Rondo today, that's for sure.

    Kuzma, he's got no elite skill. Like nada.
     
  18. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    12,063
    Likes Received:
    31,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    i'm hoping the phil handy hire helps this, both practically and symbolically.

    he nearly put up 20 last year in a system not as catered to his abilities. had he landed in NO, they would have built things so that he could thrive. here, he has to fit in.

    as for what it's worth...tough call. on the open market, i think a bad team offers him 12 per or more, and they're happy with him. that sounds high, but several players have gotten that without ever showing what he's shown. and he's still 24 with room to grow in his game (e.g., there's a long history of guys improving their 3 point shot, which is a huge issue for him).

    i'll reverse the question above. i'd be thrilled with lonzo as our backup pg! he currently makes backup pg money. but what's he going to get at contract time? i promise you his agent isn't thinking 8-12 million per.

    in other words: retaining kuz at near his market value might not be as big a problem as doing so with lonzo. i'll be curious to see how NO ends up handling that, actually. bad teams get burned like this all the time--you can't let him walk, you don't want to poison the relationship, but you know he's not worth the max by a longshot. tough spot. glad we're not in it. we just max AD without question and move forward.
     
    tada and trodgers like this.
  19. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,873
    Likes Received:
    17,304
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    Ball is going to be pushing for max if he plays like he is this year. I don't even think the play is max, but with his potential thrown in, he's going to get a ton of money.
     
    sirronstuff and abeer3 like this.
  20. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    12,063
    Likes Received:
    31,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    right...you want to be on the hook for that? small market with zion/BI/ball eating up basically all the cap? how much is josh hart going to get?

    zion better be lebron.
     

Share This Page