Sorry youre right about the position. I guess like Kobe, he played a lot with the ball in his hands and if I can remember something correctly, used to bring the ball up a lot for Portland. I feel not that many people out there shoot over 40% period? Dragic over Rondo easily if were talking giving them the same money. But at the end of the day im a bargain man. Once again say we get the lottery and Mudiay is there, guess what? We wont be signing neither of them.
Wait for the SAME money you take Dragic over Rondo? No thanks. Unless I get Dragic for significantly less than Rondo, I want Rondo. If it's all the same price-wise, Rondo is clearly the better option. Dragic's value comes from being undervalued.
I'm not saying Rondo is old. He's just not young. Jeremy Lin, for example, is fairly young. He's 26 right now and he'll be 27 years old next season. If Lin has a good season, and the price for Lin is significantly lower than Rondo, I'd consider keeping Lin and trying to build at other positions.
It's not more a reduction in skill with age as it is recovering from injury. Being the injury prone player that Rondo is, it doesn't help that he's turning 30 is all.
Even at the same price it's a tough decision between Dragic & Rondo.. Mostly due to injury concerns with Rondo.. He's a few years older & his game relies heavily on athleticism (on both sides of the ball). Dragic also seems like a better fit. Rondo is 1 of the best in the league at getting teammates good shots & 1 of the best defenders in the league at PG.. Dragic is an elite shooter & above average at just about everything else. If we're signing a 28-30 year old PG, part of the reasoning is going to be seeing how far they can go with Kobe. As long as Kobe is here Rondo isn't going to be able to play his game & have the ball 100% of the time. I'd love to see us get Dragic at a decent price & try to bring back Lin at a bargain. They could do well in a 2 PG lineup.
@therealdeal - Okay, its not easy but Dragic(28) did AVG 20-6,shooting 50% last year. Now hes playing with Thomas so I feel his numbers might be deflated this year some. If Rondo comes it has to be with a great wing player who can score and a dominant, or damn near dominant big man that can get his own shot. With Dragic since he is a solid ball distributor and a great scoring threat at any given moment IMO..along with Kobe who can also get his own shot, you just need a dominant defender @SF and again would just need the dominant, or near dominant inside presence. I guess honestly what it comes down to, is IF Randle can that STRONG inside presence, im cool with Rondo at a fair value since Randle is on a rookie contract. IF Randle is not that capable presence inside, its hard to be on board with Rondo because he cant create his own shot and wouldnt be one of three scoring options in a line up. IMO, you NEED 3 strong scoring options on the floor at all times.
Three strong scoring options: Kobe, swaggy and/or green, Randle. That's assuming we don't get a big in free agency
One of those options has to be inside though IMO. Like you mentioned in the Randle thread, hes going to be more of a post up,face you up and out muscle/dribble his way to the basket, if not shoot the 10-20 foot jumper(which hopefully becomes one of his strengths very soon) type player. I definitely respect your opinion though and am not saying you cant win a championship without a dominant inside presence, just think that is the best way to stay relevant long term.
Keep in mind Rondo helps create scoring presences. I've watched him carry those crappy big men then have over in Boston and I think he could make Jordan Hill and Ed Davis look a lot better than they do even now. I have nothing against Dragic as a player to pick up (although I hate him and his whiny face), I'm just saying that for the same price I want Rondo. If it costs 15 million to get either of them, I take Rondo. If it takes 20 million to get either of them, I again pick Rondo because he's more likely to live up to that price tag. If it takes 20 to get Rondo and 10 to get Dragic... then I'm listening for sure to Dragic. I still might pick Rondo if I have other plans, but I'm still listening intently to Dragic.
Not sure I agree with that. Brandon Bass with Rondo: -12.1 FG% from season average Kelly Olynyk with Rondo: -13.2 FG% Jared Sullinger with Rondo: +1 FG% Tyler Zeller with Rondo: -34.8 FG% Every big is shooting significantly worse with Rondo, outside a 1% increase by Jared. Sample size is small so lets go back to last year and see if the story is consistent. Jared Sullinger w/ Rondo: -0.8 FG% Kelly Olynyk w/ Rondo: -4.5 FG% Kris Humphries w/ Rondo: -10.4 FG% Vitor Faverani w/ Rondo: -0.6 FG% Brandon Bass w/ Rondo: -4.6 FG% Joel Anthony w/ Rondo: +1.2 FG% The story remains consistent. For the most part, bigs are shooting worse with Rondo on the floor. Go back another year. Chris Wilcox: -23.5 FG% Jared Sullinger: -3 FG% Kevin Garnett: -4.1 FG% Jason Collins: +9 FG% Brandon Bass: -2.3 FG% Story remains consistent again. Bigs consistently shoot worse with Rondo on the floor.
And yet as you typed those names did you realize who you're typing about? Most of those guys don't belong on an NBA court and Rondo's ability to get into the paint and set them up still keeps them employed. Sullinger and Garnett being the likely exceptions to the rule. I love stats as much as the next guy, but I've watched the team play enough to know the truth. Wilcox, Collins, and even Bass are probably 3rd string players now on any other team. Faverani, Humphries, and Anthony are all straight up terrible and might not make an NBA roster anywhere else. Rondo and the guards over there keep these guys employed. Olynyk enjoys modest success over there and is a decent approximation of what Ryan Kelly would look like with Rondo. I love stats and I think they can be used to paint clear pictures at times, but I also love seeing the thing for myself. For instance this season Carlos Boozer is averaging 12.6 points, 5.9 rebounds, and shooting 50% from the field. Those are respectable numbers, but I wouldn't call him a respectable player thus far this season.
Everything is relative so you have to put things in context. If you make bad players even worse, you aren't having this "positive" impact that people think Rondo is having on his team simply. Imo, most people make these claims about Rondo because of his box score stats without looking more deeply into things. The bigs consistently shoot worse with Rondo on the floor. The team consistently performs better or at the same level without Rondo on the floor. If your argument is that he makes the bigs better, how exactly is he doing it? If he's giving them more and better scoring opportunities, why are they consistently shooting worse with him on the floor? It's not just one big or two bigs. Virtually every big that plays with Rondo starts shooting worse with him on the floor. For example, look at what an even older Garnett does with an actual PG. He actually shoots better with that PG on the floor. Garnett w/ D-Will: +2.8 FG% Garnett w/ D-Will (14-15): +7.8 FG%
I'm not making any excuses and I have no idea why the numbers come out the way they do. All I can tell you is what I see when I watch them play. Aren't there similar numbers with the Lakers when they've played without Kobe? During the 2008-2010 run I seem to recall similar numbers showing similar results for when Kobe wasn't on the floor in small stretches. Could it be that the team has been well coached and when Rondo misses time there's an able replacement behind him to handle things for a while? I don't think it's coincidence that the C Bags were among the worst teams in the NBA last season without him.
Yea, it wasn't really aimed toward you but just the general perception on Rondo. Imo, he's just the most overrated player in the game, and I just really don't see the infatuation with him. I'll look at Kobe's stats later today. I remember doing this back then (when people were making that claim) and seeing that Kobe impacted the team positively. As for the C Bags, they weren't a bad team because they were without Rondo. They just suck with or without Rondo. Lol. The year he got hurt, they improved their winning percentage without Rondo. They went from a 0.45 (W/L %) team to a 0.53 team. They even had a 7-game winning streak the moment Rondo went down. They then got worse when he returned. They went from a 0.37 team to a 0.20 team. I give him a pass for this year though.
I don't think he's the MOST overrated. I think he does a lot of things really well and considering where we are, I'd definitely welcome him on our team. I know you don't like him though. I remember the awesome Michael Scott gif. I think all things considered, he'd help the team quite a lot. Then again, everyone and anyone would help the team quite a lot.
Yea, I'll tone down my Rondo hate a bit. I think he can help this team in some ways because he is actually a good passer and he can be a good defender. He has some awesome games that make me wonder why he doesn't play like that more often. Overall though, I just don't want him because of some of the weaknesses/pitfalls I listed earlier.
Fair enough. Who on the open market would you target instead? My personal favorite (and has been for a while) is Monroe. Plenty of issues with his game, but he's a reliable 6'11" Center with high ceiling offensive ability. Not a great rim protector, but has good hands and collects a good number of steals because of it. He's a good passer, not fantastic, but good. Good-not-great rebounder. He's got the potential to be Pau Gasol but will probably fall short. The good news is though he's only 25 so the potential is absolutely there.
I'd first look at SFs and Cs. PGs like Dragic/Rondo are nice, but I think they'd command a decent amount of money and consequently leave us with holes at other positions. (I don't know everyone that's available) Depending on how much Monroe wants, I'd welcome him for sure. I agree with you about his defense as a rim protector. I'd want him to improve in that area. Marc is my first choice though for Cs. Asik is another nice option, although Monroe would be the best long-term solution. As for SF, any half-decent SF would instantly improve us by 10 wins by getting rid of Wesley Johnson. I'd also look at some SGs since the two positions are kind of interchangeable. People mentioned Jimmy Butler. He'd be really, really nice to have on the defensive end. He's not bad on offense too. Danny Green and Arron Afflalo (player option), and Deng (another player option) could also be available too. If we can land Gasol, do you know how much money we'd have left? If we have enough cash available, I'd push hard someone like Deng (assuming he opts out), who is about the same age, and try to make a run now. If not, I'd go for Monroe/Butler. With them 2 + Lin/Randle, all are about 25 and younger. If we also get a top 5 pick, then that isn't a bad core. If next year's pick or Randle can turn into superstars, that's a contender. If not, then we'd have a very solid set of role players and I think it would be easy to convince a star to come to LA with the ultimate role players already in place. No idea how all that works in terms of salary cap though.
Well if the rumors are true we only have room this summer for one max deal and then maybe another 6-7 million to go before the cap. It's a bummer because I think the NBA will keep us from reloading as effectively as we could. My rationale for Monroe is: 1. Good bigs are hard to come by. 2. Young bigs are hard to come by. 3. A max contract for Monroe is cheaper than most other max contracts. 4. Young guys are easy to move if need be. I like Butler though. He's a RFA and I think another team would outbid us. The Deng idea is interesting. If we could convince him to come for a reasonable price he'd make a cool addition.
Cap is PROJECTED @66.5 mill. W/Kobe,Young,Randle,Clarkson as ONLY players under salary which totals to 34 million give or take. I honestly just try and sign the best bargain SF available but pass on all the bigs,pgs simply due to the contracts theyre going to command and re-sign ours to fair deals. Keep FULL cap open for the year Kobe is a free agent.
