LABron James Discussion: Triple Triple Doubles

The twisted logic of Jordan's 6-0 Finals record being impeccable never fails to amaze me.

It's NOT perfect. Perfect means that every time you partook in a competition, you won it all. He didn't. He failed 9 times, in his 15 seasons, to even get to the Finals.

How is that a +?!

Jordan's record reminds me of a kid deciding to play a game. Say, toss a coin. And he wins only if it lands on tails 5 out of 5 times. He starts tossing and the moment the coin lands on heads, he says "doesn't count" and starts again.

Then it does land on tails 5 times in a row. And he claims to have a perfect record.

Mindbottling.

 

I have no idea other then SImmons doesn't bring up how diluted the league was back in the 90's when Jordan finally broke thru (I have Jordan as the Goat just as a reference but there is way too much afterglow on how great those Bulls were historically IMO).

The league had expanded by 4 teams starting in 88 and ending in 92. The European invasion hadn't happened. Suddenly gone were the super teams of the Lakers/Boston/Detroit and you had some frankly crappy NY Knicks squads and pacers later on.

I mean those Knicks teams folks get nostalgic because they were one of the few times the Knicks were relevant but they were not a great team by any stretch: Ewing was by far the weakest of the Big 3 centers (never won an MVP vs guys like D. Rob and Hakeem). Then you had a bunch of decent above average guys like starks, mason, davis, etc. You compare that team to the Clippers or Boston with a bunch huge 2 way wings that are big as the Knicks PF's and you just see how wide the talent discrepancy is.

Sticking with the first 3 peat and you look at Barkely's Sun. Barkley clearly an all timer and then they had another great player in Kevin Johnson but then after that they Dan Majerle and Richard coked up Dumas after that. They lost Cedric Ceballos before the Finals which everyone has forgotten who was really good for them. Does that scream super team to anyone when you compare it the Lakers, GSW, Clipers? Even teams like Denver has two superstars with a better supporting cast with good size and skills at multiple positions.

 

I think around the time Magic "resigned" is when Ramona lost access to Jeanie and also Linda Rambis.

With that said Ramona has a good podcast with Zach Lowe before the finals that outlines the Lakers from CP3 trade to now. Ramona also tells a story of Jim Buss hanging out with Pat Riley after the Lakers lost to the Pistons in '04. Jim was asking for advice and even hinting at Riley to (step down from the Heat and) coach the Lakers... Jim told him they were prepared to be without Shaq, and that's when Riles went home and started working on a deal to get him. Crazy stuff.

 

Jordan couldn't get passed teams like the Lakers, C Bags and Bad Boys until all their best stars were old or retired. That is not to say MJ wasn't great. But people like to pretend '6-0 in the Finals' means that only 6 years of his career mattered. What about all the times he didn't get to the Finals? So MJ losing in the ECF is nothing, but Bron losing (to super teams) in the Finals is worse?

 

I have Lebron as #6 on my all-time Laker list:

1. Kobe
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. West
5. Shaq
6. Lebron
7. Wilt
8. Worthy
9. Baylor
10 Wilkes

There's probably recency bias on my part because there are definitely names ranked after him that have been with the Lakers longer and have more rings, but I don't know, I feel like his impact can't be overstated. We were in the dark ages and irrelevant pretty much after Kobe retired. He voluntarily chose to come to the franchise when literally no other star wanted to come. If he had done otherwise, I don't know how much longer we would have to wait to win our 17th championship with the "kids"...if we would have won at all. I'm inclined we would have just been in a perpetual state of rebuilding every few years.

Also, I hope Lebron's jersey is retired with us.

 

Yeah, when having GOAT discussions about Jordan, for me, just don't leave the 80s out, as great as he was in the 90s, and he was, make no mistake. Zeke said it best:

Source: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...-him-a-hole-and-how-pistons-defined-that-era/

 

Our drafting was not great. We would have been waiting a long time...

The one and done rule makes it harder to draft superstars (excluding when there is a LeBron James in the draft).

 

Considering the history, I would disregard Zeke's opinion on anything other than PG duties. The dude has no class and is bitter.

 

Let's not forget how people say: 'Jordan never stopped winning once he started winning'.

People have a short memory of him losing to Orlando, and the Wizards years.

Then Jordan fanboys have the audacity to say, he would have dominated the soft league today because he is Jordan. When you point out the 3 point shooting, their answer is 'Jordan would have figured it out because he is Jordan'.

I can only imagine how Jordan would handle the media scrutiny playing today. Particularly his gambling.

 

Make no mistake about it. Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer and all the bad boys will continue to troll MJ forever.

Another mistake not to make. Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever. With Kobe number 2.

Lebron is not competing with MJ and Kobe. He is competing with Kareem's career stats.

And Kobe being in the conversation is amazing in itself considering he didn't have the same career path MJ and Lebron had where he was the man the moment he came in. Had that happened, his stats would have been much different.

Circumstance has a lot to do with this. However, from a pure basketball skill standpoint with the accomplishments, no one is better than Jordan. I saw it with my own eyes. The guy was unreal.

 

The GOAT argument is so subjective, which is why I've been baffled by the Jordan idolizers for so long. Considering anyone besides Jordan is blashpemy of the highest order. There are so may players that can be in the discussion. I've been watching basketball since the 80's and there have been several players that at their peak were just as dominant as Jordan. Magic, Kareem, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron were just as dominant as Jordan when they were on top of their respective games. All of those guys at their people were could manipulate the game and would terrorize opponents.

Jordan likely is the best ever (Kareem is 1 for me personally) but to act like no one else reached that level requires a level of human idol worship that I personally don't understand. Also with Jordan, when he was at his peak, his stiffest competition had retired, so there was no one else as good as he was that played on the wing that could challenge him, so it made his dominance more extreme I guess, in comparison to everyone else. Magic went against Bird and Isaiah, Kareem's career overlapped Wilt, Walton, and Malone, Kobe went up against Iverson, Ray Allen, Wade, Tmac, Shaq against Duncan and Hakeem, Lebron against Durant. Jordan didn't have a foil at his absolute peak and the guys that were close didn't play his position (Barkley, Payton, Karl Malone, Hakeem) so it makes his greatness more exaggerated.

 

You can absolutely discount Bill Russell. The question is how much should we devalue his career. Bill wasn't going up against the same competition. I won't knock Bill for being advanced for his generation but basketball was simply a far different sport back then and the competition level/8-10 teams/only needing two playoffs series to win a title/super stacked C Bags rosters/basketball infancy should come into play here. The coaching today is far more intricate than run and gun. AD would dominate that era as much as Bill Russell did defensively. Certainly, not much worse at the very least. People will argue that the 8 teams actually made the league more competitive. Yes, theoretically, it should. But the talent pool wasn't as talented as it is in the 90's or today so you have 15 really good players back then and just very below average players everywhere else. Today, if you took the top 100 NBA players and stuck them to 8 teams, every team would have a chance to win a title. Not so much the case where the C Bags of Bill's time had 50% of the talent in the league and no one stood a chance. Wilt dominated Bill but he fell in love with the stats once he realized he couldn't overcome the C Bags as a team.

I love KAJ and had him above LeBron as the #2 but with LeBron's recent title, it's got to be Bron for me ahead of KAJ. KAJ won six rings, true, but where would his career be had Magic not showed up? He won four rings in the latter end of his career in which he was far away from his prime. 2x Finals MVP compared to LeBron's 4x Finals MVP. No one is more accomplished than KAJ if we consider the entirety of basketball (college, high school, professional), but in the NBA, LeBron has simply been more dominant, consistent, and successful.

 

Not to mention, Lebron feels like he can still produce at a high level for a few more years!!