LABron James Discussion: Triple Triple Doubles

I think it's fairly easy to see what's happening over there if we're all objective about everything:

1) LeBron's cast is underperforming. They're underperforming with him on the floor and they're certainly underperforming with him off the floor. You can blame him if you want (doesn't make a lot of sense, but there's a bias there), but in reality this is not very different than the teams Kobe dragged to the playoffs after our 2010 championships. It's made up of players that don't know what to do, aren't being trusted, don't trust themselves, and look to LeBron for everything. There's no ownership, there's no fire, there's no will to take on a bigger role when the time calls for it.

2) They're outclassed. The Cavs know they're not as good a team and their spirit is pretty broken. They have low confidence in themselves, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

3) LeBron is trying to do it all himself and in doing so is not empowering others to succeed. Again, this is very reminiscent of the 2011, 2012, 2013 Lakers that Kobe played with. They all deferred to him all the time and Kobe, feeling that deference, took everything they gave him and determined he had to do it himself. LeBron is in the same exact boat right now. The team around him might be better if he empowered them to play better. That's absolutely true. However, is it on him to babysit these guys and massage their egos? Or should some of them simply step up to the moment? Remember how we all felt watching Pau flounder in 2011 and 2012? It was ugly. That's Love. The rest of the players are lost in the spotlight and don't know what to do. Yes, LeBron can try harder to build them up, but that leads me to my 4th point.

4) Everyone knows this is the end. They can sense it coming and I think you'll see it from LeBron soon too. He'll give it the same sort of gusto in the first quarter and when it's clear it won't matter, he'll collect his triple double and head home trying not to get hurt. This is a doomed marriage, a doomed team, and they all sense that. With all of that looming over them, the players are wondering, "if he's leaving, why am I busting my *** for him?" which is a fair thought.

All in all, I think you can place the blame where you want and clearly most people want to place it with LeBron. That's fine, but I think that's really oversimplifying it.

 

No need to get sensitive about it. The remark was as much pointed at me as anyone else in this thread. I've obviously been the biggest champion of bringing LeBron here and I've made concessions constantly about my stance. I've admitted he is a douche. I've admitted there's an age risk. I've admitted it's tough to see potentially letting go of young kids to make room (Randle). In that post I admitted that he hasn't made his teammates as good in this series as he could have. I conceded some of your point so I did address making his teammates better. If you want to blame the poor play of Lebron's teammates mostly on him not making them better, that's fine. Will you agree then that Kobe also didn't make his teammates better in the same situation?

Also, the better question is how could he make our team better and the answers there are plentiful. He brings championship pedigree and expectations, he would bring passing to an offense that thrives on it, he brings versatility on both ends, and he brings useful mentorship for our young players. Specifically he would work great with Lonzo and George. Lonzo is a low volume player that makes winning plays, but more importantly smart plays. Those two on the floor together would immediately put other teams at a disadvantage. George works as a wonderful asset next to LeBron. He'd be a great spacer for when LeBron wants to drive and kick and George would be able to take over when LeBron needs a time out. Ingram is a slightly worse fit, but still a great one. Ingram is more of a scorer, but turned himself into a good shooter as well. In fact, assuming Lonzo comes around more consistently the lineup of Lonzo, George, Ingram, and LeBron is basically 100% interchangeable, intelligent, defensively solid, with all four being able to pass well. Randle is maybe the only guy that isn't a great fit because he can't shoot and he needs the ball a little bit more to be effective. With LeBron he'd likely turn more into a simple rebounder which would limit his effectiveness. But it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make as we would improve in almost every other way.

I'm not calling you biased as an insult, we all have our biases. I'm biased in favor of this move. @sirronstuff is super biased, but he knows it and embraces it. If you truly were asking with no slant whatsoever whether or not LeBron is making these players better, I apologize but I'm pretty sure we both know the score here.

 

I am calling us all biased. Again, it's not an insult, it's just the truth. The vast majority of the posters in here are absolutely haters. Are you claiming you aren't? I'm a hater for plenty of things. Shoot I used to be a LeBron hater. I just don't think most of the arguments against him this time around really hold much merit. He's earned my respect the last couple seasons. It's okay to be a hater by the way, again these words aren't meant to be insulting. I respect hate. It's what fandom is about. However, I'll rebut arguments that I don't think make much sense.

I understand, but I actually disagree that "we will all root for that flopping bastard". there's been people in here saying they absolutely will not root for him and some said they may stop being Laker fans.

Defense will be opportunistic, no question. He's entered that phase of his career, but just look at some of the plays he's made in the playoffs this year. Even if he lets a few baskets go during the season, the good outweighs the bad at a crazy rate. Then in the playoffs when it counts, he can turn it up when he needs to.

I'd say he gave Delonte West, Anderson Varejao, and various other hanger-ons careers in the league. Zydrunas Ilguaskas was able to go the Finals because of LeBron (the only time Ilguaskas reached the playoffs before LeBron was back in 97). Kyrie Irving's first season with LeBron, his numbers took a slight step backward, but he enjoyed far more success than he ever had. The next season, Kyrie posted his best career numbers ever next to LeBron James. Wade and Bosh don't win those two titles without LeBron. These players in the playoffs right now have absolutely no hope of the ECF without LeBron. Hell this team would struggle to make the playoffs at all even in the East.

The argument he doesn't make teammates better can perhaps only be told through stats that just don't tell a full picture. Sure, Wade's numbers and Kyrie's numbers and Bosh's and Love's numbers all step back a little bit with LeBron on the team, but isn't the ultimate goal to win? Doesn't adding LeBron make that possible when before it wasn't? What was Love doing before LeBron? Posting massive numbers with little success. What was Kyrie doing? Bosh? These guys all needed LeBron to get there so doesn't he by fault make them better? By the definition of better (wins)?

This is another mischaracterization of what I'm doing. I'm not dragging Kobe down in any stretch of the imagination. That's deflecting away from my point and just isn't true of the argument. The point is (and it's the counter to your point about LeBron and his cast now): these players are ultimately responsible for what they bring. Kobe took that sorry team to the playoffs and they failed him once they got there. Is that on Kobe? Maybe a little bit, but really it's on his cast. They should bring more to the table. That is the same situation as is happening with LeBron right now and it's proven in the last game they just played.

For the first time in the series, the Cavs brought defensive intensity. For the first time in the series, George Hill started the game aggressively. For the first time in the series, JR Smith hit a three pointer (he hit three of them actually). The Cavs had 42 points off the bench for the first time. The previous two games combined they had 56 points off the bench. The other players came to play and lo and behold, the Cavs won the game. LeBron's usage% was also the lowest out of all three games so I think it's pretty clear that his teammates need to be doing more on the court. The problem is in the two games before those same players were either unwilling or unable to perform. Is that LeBron's responsibility?

 

We’re cool Vas. Just a difference of opinion. I don’t mind being called a hater. In fact I take great pride in it. For me that’s what sports are about. As long as I can keep my fan card, we are fine.

 

fanboy is a stretch.

We'll see, but being one the few guys fighting for this all season long I've seen some crazy takes.

No I understand that isn't just hate. I appreciate a well thought out argument like this. The vast majority of anti-LeBron posts in here though are sirron's gifs, random twitter posts, and memes.

We're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on much of this. I believe I provided enough evidence that LeBron improves the players he plays with and the teams he plays on. We'll just have to pass along on that front.

As for breaking down that quickly, I just don't see it. Only a year from now? That's a pessimistic view even given his minutes. I do agree that it's likely he has a sharp decline some time during this contract, but I think it's more likely coming the 3rd or 4th year at which point he'd already have provided what I'm expecting: pushing us over the top in terms of competition right away. To me, there's so much positive about bringing LeBron not just on the court but even more in terms of legitimizing our franchise again that it outweighs potential concerns on the back end of the deal. Part of what that means is getting LeBron means we're 100% assured to get Paul George and puts us in play for getting Kawhi and other such stars. Players want to compete and there's no better gatekeeper individually in the NBA than LeBron.

I'm not sure there's evidence he hasn't done that and I think it's really letting those players off the hook by not holding them responsible. In the end, as the leader of the ship LeBron deserves some criticism, but he has given a Herculean effort to get this team here so giving him blame when they suck doesn't sit right with me.

I'm done with this by the way. I don't have the time or energy to keep this going.