Kobe Bryant Discussion: Mamba Out!

Maybe top 25. Very generous.

 

As far as I've seen, nobody here has said Kobe was better than Jordan overall. Even if they had, you're on a Laker forum it wouldn't be unheard of for someone to have that opinion. I'm sure if I wanted to go to a Bulls forum, I'd hear all sorts of crazy things about whoever is on their team now. Still, just about everyone here on LB I think is fairly comfortable with where Kobe's career ended up. He's one of the greatest to ever play the game and any attempt at stating otherwise is pure hatred. It's the hate equivalent of a "fan boi".

Phil Jackson sure is the paragon of human evaluation. I suppose cherry picking quotes from Jackson that favor Jordan from a book fits your argument better though. Besides, the quotes you're grabbing came from a book that was written before the two of them came back together and worked out their differences. They're quite close now. I suppose it'd hurt your argument to hear that Phil thought Kobe had a greater work ethic. Also, I pray I"m not judged for how I acted in high school. My goodness. Not to mention, I'm sure there's no evidence Kobe blew teams out with gusto in the NBA.

Wait so it's a negative now to want to win games? Or is it a negative to want to take the last shot? Lord, don't bring this point to Michael Jordan, he'd laugh you out of the building.

I mean if you're even half way a Laker fan, if you know anything about the situation revolving around Shaq, Kobe, and Jackson, you know this is the grossest oversimplification and frankly not a good point at all. Was Kobe selfish 15 years ago? Absolutely, but he was still dedicated to winning. The story is so much more nuanced than, "Kobe ran the band out of town". This point really drags down your credibility.

These stats are laughably biased. Let's talk about blocks per game in the Finals between a 6'6" SG and a 7'1" C. Let's talk about how we separate out the Finals against Philadelphia, Indiana, and New Jersey who had no answer for Shaq down low as an example of Kobe sucking. It had nothing to do with a gameplan where Shaq routinely dominated against sub-par guards while Kobe chased around Iverson, Miller, Mark Jackson, and Jason Kidd.

Let's ignore their full Playoff stats:
Kobe 2000: 21.1 points (2nd only to Shaq), 4.5 rebounds (3rd on the team behind Shaq and Horry), 4.4 assists (lead the team), 1.5 steals (lead the team), 1.5 blocks (2nd only to Shaq). At 21 years old.

Kobe 2001: 29.4 points (just 1 point fewer than Shaq), 7.3 rebounds (2nd only to Shaq), 6.1 assists (nearly twice as much as any other player), 1.6 steals (2nd only to Rick Fox), 0.8 blocks (tied for 3rd with Grant behind Horry and Shaq again as a SG). This team was one of the greatest of all time and Kobe and Shaq were at the height of their power here. By the way at 22 years old to Shaq's 28 years old Kobe lead him in minutes played.

Kobe 2002: 26.6 points (a little less than 2 fewer than Shaq), 5.8 rebounds, 4.6 assists (again easily leading the team), 1.4 steals (behind only Horry), 0.9 blocks (behind only Shaq).

Kobe 2003: 32.1 points (5 more points than Shaq), 5.1 rebounds (3rd behind Shaq and Horry), 5.2 assists (again easily leading the team), 1.2 steals (2nd to Fisher), and only 0.1 blocks (should have been more). Kobe played over 44 minutes per game and shot over 40% from three.

Kobe 2004: 24.5 points (3 more than Shaq), 4.7 rebounds (behind Shaq and Malone), 5.5 assists (again easily leading the team), 1.9 steals (by far leading the team), 0.3 blocks (could have done better, but was still third on the team).

I know I went to 2003 and 2004 because anyone objective should look at those years as well. Shaq's skills had hit their peak and he was unable to come to terms with that. He was belligerent, rude, and increasingly overweight. The point though is that it's easy to cherry pick the Finals stats and the argument is fair that Kobe didn't take a big leap in production in the Finals during those years. It is however decidedly NOT accurate to diminish Kobe's impact on those teams. Laker fans know: Kobe got them to the Finals and Shaq took over once we got there. If Kobe was so bad during the Finals as you say, then how are his numbers overall so great?

Again, the only one saying Kobe is better than Jordan is you against an imaginary assailant. But for the record you're on a Laker site denigrating one of the greatest Lakers of all time. You should expect not to be met with understanding and agreement. You don't just go into someone's house for the first time and start poking fun at their family. The "nearly" part of your post is the key though there isn't it? Jordan was a better physical specimen, no doubt. Anybody could tell you that, including Laker fans. Jordan was a bit bigger, a bit stronger, had bigger hands, and had better leaping ability. Kobe was also a better shooter, had at worst equal footwork, and in the end was a better scorer. I don't think there's any denying that Kobe Bryant at his hottest, was hotter than Jordan could be. There's ample evidence of that. I'd say Jordan was better, but not by the chasm you've invented by living in the stats. Jordan was able to do more in large part to the people he'd had around him. I would say if you'd switched their places in their careers, the difference in the output wouldn't be enormous. I'm sure you disagree. That's fine.

By this logic, the league was much more difficult for Kobe. Jordan dealt with on average smaller and weaker players. He paved the way for Kobes and Carters and McGradys and Hills who all made Kobe's life more difficult if anything. Gifted? That's an interesting way to look at it when considering what Jordan played against.

The early 2000s when Kobe was winning his titles was too physical? Your timing is a bit off here.

So the league flooded with talented wings which made Kobe's life... easier? Your logic is pretty flawed here. God forbid Jordan had to go up against Iverson, McGrady, Carter, etc. Out of one side of your mouth you judge Kobe harsher for his poorer defense, then your next point is that the rules made defense much harder when Kobe was at his peak? You don't see the flaw in that?

Again, odd point to make in my opinion. The gross numbers increased, but if you look back at the distributions they're pretty similar to when Jordan first got to the league. The 80s had a number of great wings, the 90s not as much. The 90s had a number of truly dominant big men though. I wonder if Jordan not having to be defended by some of the league's bigger wings had anything to do with his ability to post up effectively? I wonder if the lack of intricate defenses had to do with his numbers? Probably, but who am I to try to take away from what Jordan did even in the slightest, right? Jordan was the greatest and nobody could touch him! Except Magic and Kareem, but let's not talk about that.

I will not defend Kobe's efficiency. This is by far the greatest knock against him. I will however say that Kobe's teams were by far worse than any person on that list's. Nobody on that list outside of perhaps LeBron had to play with a team as devoid of talent as Kobe's teams from 2005 to 2007. There was a reason his usage was that high and it's because he wasn't about to cede shots to Smush Parker. Jordan didn't win a playoff team until he had Pippen. Kareem had Magic and Oscar Robertson and Worthy. Russell had a number of the greatest players at the time. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Duncan had the Admiral. Etc. etc. etc. Again: Kobe was inefficient, make no mistake, but his teams were dreadful. I would never blame him for taking shots with those teams.

Less successful than Jordan in the same way Jordan was less successful than Magic or Kareem?

The key to all this is Kobe was one of the greatest players of all time. Your assertion that he's somehow not in the Top 20 players of all time is just amazingly ridiculous. You're one of the most staunch haters I've ever seen and you come into our home and throw this sort of stuff around like we've never heard or seen it before. It's ridiculous.

Kobe is 5/7 in the Finals, was unquestionably the leader for two of those and was at worst the greatest #2 in history for the other three, he's 3rd on the all-time scoring list, he's done things offensively that nobody else in the modern age has done including the hyper-inflated stats of this past season. He's got two gold medals, 4 All-Star MVPs, 18 All-Star appearances, 15 All-NBA teams, and 12 All-Defensive teams. He has scoring streaks unmatched by anyone including Jordan and ultimately even Jordan admits that Kobe could have held his own against Jordan himself.

In the end, you hate the guy, that's fine. Around here we don't care if you have a controversial opinion. All I'd ask is that you not bring that hatred into every single thread you post in. Bring quality posting to the site like our other Scout friends instead of spamming Kobe hatred. It's not exactly endearing around here.

 

In 2000 and in the Finals all 3 years, yes. But Kobe was the MVP of the West playoffs in 01 and 02. So much so that Shaq said he was the greatest player he's ever seen.

Jordan had Hall of Famers surrounding him in his prime. Kobe had Smush and Kwame. Like Jordan, when Kobe had other great players, he had parades. Neither could do it alone. I just wish Kobe had great players with him in his prime.

 

I'm not going to say Kobe was better than Jordan. I honestly believe Kareem was and you can make a case for Magic. But to my fellow Lakerballers (?)...

 

In his Finals appearances, Jordan defended and was defended by the likes of 1991 Byron Scott, Danny Ainge, Hersey Hawkins, Jeff Hornacek. The one player who was considered SOMEWHAT his equal at the time was Drexler whom Pippen covered defensively in their lone Finals match-up.

 

This.

Not to mention that MJ's running mate always guarded the best wing on the other team. Kobe always guarded the best wing. Not to mention that PJ had Kobe playing both the Pippin AND Jordan role on offense. Kobe was expected to initiate the offense (Pippin) and also bail the team out whenever the shot clock ran down (Jordan).
Not to mention Kobe having to deal with zone defenses which Jordan never faced.

 

Jordan also had Harper who morphed into a very good defender late in his career, Randy Brown and along with B.J. Armstrong who was not shabby on that side of the ball. Pippen led The Doberman Defense...and they were that.

 

Players besides @therealdeal mentioned whom Bryant had to mostly cover or switch up on during his playoff games:

Bonzi Wells, Steve Smith, Damon Stoudemire, Derek Anderson, Doug Christie, Mike Bibby, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Jalen Rose, Latrell Sprewell, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Deron Williams, Jason Richardson, Steve Nash, Courtney Lee, Russell Westbrook, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Chris Paul...

Bryant also had to deal with the likes of Augmon, Pippen, Patterson, Bell, Bowen, Tony Allen, Shawn Marion, James Posey, Artest all of whom were notable defenders.

Bryant never had it easy considering the list...as @TIME mentioned that he had to pull double duty.

 

Next time do this:


We clearly weren't paying the needed attention.

 

I didn't feel like I disrespected. I just don't like that it was in every post.