Kobe Bryant Discussion: Mamba Out!

Kobe was a fine player... clearly a top 100 player ever... maybe top 75. Maybe cracks into the top 50

 

LB is another Scout transplant. He's not a Lakers fan, a devoted Kobe hater...we don't claim him

 

Wouldn't we say Kobe's impact on the Laker's record (even the last 2 years) over the last 8 seasons is the biggest hater?

And you claim me... I'm family.

 

I like this guy. Seems like an instigator.

But on Kobe only hitting top 50?

 

Devoted Kobe haters ...... even Julius Einstein knows are no fun.

 

instigator... revolutionary... potato/patahto

 

Let Kobe still grow up watching and dreaming of being like MJ and Magic in the NBA .... but give him the same sized hands and somewhat better athleticism of Mike and what would you have? An improved and better 2.0 version of the greatest player ever. KJ.

 

Thank you! I prefer not to think of it as trolling as much as reaching out to lost lambs in the valley of darkness.

But your kind words are appreciated and your council is sound.

 

I'm curious as to how you being a Bulls fan and I assume a huge fan of Michael like we ALL were that you can't appreciate that the NBA was gifted just as Mike was winding down his career with a player that also loved his game so much that he became every bit as proficient or better skills wise, was even more dedicated to his workout regimen allegedly by PJ and every last bit the competitor MJ was. And virtually as dominant. Did some things in scoring even MJ never did. Had a better long range 3 in his prime. He probably played through many more serious injuries than Mike. Just because he had a s*** load of them. That first 3 peat was every bit as much Kobe as it was Shaq.

So unless you just like to goof about it why can't you appreciate Kobe for the unbelievable Jordan 1B talent he was?

 

It's thick around here!

 

I never liked Michael Jordan, he was the reason players are hoisting 30 shots and try to grandstand every play...

 

A.) I thought even Kobe's biggest fan bois had given up the ghost of Kobe eclipsing MJ... citing "his career isn't done, yet" . But I guess I was wrong.

B.) Phil Jackson never wrote a damning book nor was effectively "fired" by MJ. The Key of Jackson was when he intimated that Kobe would allow his high school teams to get down so he could lead them to victory and "manufacture" drama. Jackson went on to say that MJ didn't care about the score or heroics or anything but kicking your a** at every moment. Jordan didn't play for the "last shot" (which he was EXCEEDINGLY more proficient at than Kobe by the way). He would take your heart by the middle of the third quarter.

But MOSTLY to the point, jackson let us know that Kobe wanted to win... as long as it was kobe doing the winning...

Its why he short sheeted the 2004 team, advocated the extradition of his HOF center, HOF power forward and HOF coach when it was clear he was headed for "second banana" status once again.

C.) But why NOT look at the numbers...?

You said that Kobe was "just as much Kobe as Shaq"... Shaq had those finals MVPs for a reason. Kobe himself said "it drove him nuts" that the general perception was that you could plug any of the talented 2 guards in the game at the time with Shaq and it meant a title. EVEN he realized that thats what people thought.

But... lets look at say that first ring: Kobe's most ardent supporters like to say how "clutch" he is yet that was anything but the truth based on the numbers. In the finals we saw a career-wide DISMAL drop to his efficiency on the highest stage.

While Mike and others like Magic rose to the occasion, Kobe's antics diminished not only his performances, but also his teams.

The Laker first three peat was predicated on Jackson's "inside-out" triangle system with shaq being the focal point. It worked so well they nearly swept the entire playoffs in their repeat year.

Here are some fun numbers which real gm laid out as an article a couple years back. It saves me hours of pulling my own numbers so i'll use their conclusions (in red) for a moment:

2000 NBA Finals

Shaq- 38 PPG, 17 RPG, 2.5 APG, 2.7 BPG, 61% FG 96/157----6 games
Kobe-16 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG, 36% FG%, 33/90----5 games

MVP= Shaq. Shaq performs MUCH better than Bryant who shoots a pathetic 36 percent. Also Shaq was doubled covered while Kobe was left with less coverage but even then Shaq did much better.

2001 NBA Finals

Shaq- 33 PPG, 16 RPG, 5 APG, 3.5 BPG, 63/110 57% FG-----5 games
Kobe- 24 PPG, 8 RPG, 6 APG, 1.4 BPG, 44/106 41% FG------5 games

MVP= Shaq. Shaq performs MUCH better than Bryant who shoots 41%.. Also Shaq was doubled covered while Kobe was left with less coverage but even then Shaq did much better.

2002 NBA Finals

Shaq- 37 PPG, 12.25 RPG, 4 APG, 2.75 BPG, 50/84 60% FG----4 games
Kobe-26 PPG, 5.75 RPG, 5 APG, .75 BPG, 36/70 51% FG-------4 games

MVP= Shaq again. Same old story- Shaq gets doubled coverage yet he still out performs Kobe big time.

Total average stats for 3 championships (15 games)=

Shaq=36 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.7 APG, 3 BPG, 209/351 60% FG, Double coverage
Kobe=20 PPG, 6 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1 BPG, 113/266 42% FG, Single coverage

So... here we are at a crossroads... thats the full 3 first rings. No one with eyes, a conscience or a general understanding of math would EVER suggest "kobe had just as much to do as..."

In fact, through 6 championship runs... Kobe's total numbers were:

23 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 41% FG
And then in his final finals appearance... 28.5, 8 and 3.5. Which is a nice line but that 41% shooting showed inefficiency once again.

Compare that to MJs finals numbers: 33.6 (+35%) 6 (+15%) and 6 (+15%) at 48.6% shooting.

Making a case for Kobe against MJ is a fools errand by nearly EVERY statistical measure... let alone the accolades test (6 finals mvps and 5 mvps in general to 2 and 1 respectively).

BUT... numbers CAN be deceiving... and in Kobe's case... they ARE!!! how... lets look on.


D.) Kobe Bryant was GIFTED the greatest era for swing players of ALL TIME and only managed 2 titles.

Point blank the NBA rules committee gift wrapped the rules governing basketball with a bow and served it on a silver plater to bryant.

With declining scoring due to LARGELY physical games that favored bruisers the NBA was losing popularity in the early 2000s.

The answer was to do away with hand checking and ANY physical impeding of a player moving laterally off the dribble. The result of these rule changes was the emergence of the "dominant" swing player. Tmac, Wince Carter, Allen Iverson, Michael Redd and a host of "also rans" became "superstars" due to the relative ease wing players who could put the ball on the floor would be given points (from the line or the lack of playable defense.)

in 2003-2004 how many +25 point per game scorers were there?? Thats right... 1.
New rules kick in...
In 2004-2005 how many +25 point per game scorers were there?? Thats right... 7(mostly all swing men)
In 2005-2006 how many +25 point per game scorers were there?? Thats right... 10 (90% swing men with 3... 3 eclipsing 30 ppg)

And so on and so forth... Kobe's numbers aren't NEARLY as impressive that the games OTHER swings ALSO saw a TON of scoring increase as well.

THE THING THAT IS DISTURBING... Kobe's usage rate during this period was the most or top 2 in the game... meaning... OF COURSE HE WAS GOING TO SCORE. It was the most blessed set of rules of ALL TIME for swing players who could score and he damn near used every possession to do so! I would have expected more... but then... lets talk about "tops".

E.) The Efficiency ratings... anyone in business knows that cumulative data isn't the "end all" when you have limited resources to allocate. Such is the case of basketball. A TEAM has a limited amount of possessions in a game and thusly you usually want to make sure you utilize and maximize those possessions efficiently.

In business a product which brings in your most revenue may not necessarily be your "best margined" product. Or thought of another way... if I see 100 customers a day who spend $10 each I get $1000 dollars in revenue. If I see 10 customers a day who spend $100 each... i see the same revenue but it means less staffing, etc. even though the raw rev number looks the same, one was exceedingly more efficient.

Such was Kobe and the aforementioned "usage rate". Kobe USED a LOT of his team's limited resources to garner big personal numbers. As Jackson said "he wants to win as long as he's the one doing the winning".

If you take the HISTORY of the NBA... And take the top 3 efficiency guys in any given year, tally the number of times guys got into the top 3... you get an interesting picture.

What you find is that the guys that placed top 3 in efficiency the most times reads like a treasure trove of "best ever" candidates:

Guys with most top 3 effciency ratings: Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Shaq... (other notables: moses malone, hakeem, KG etc.)

What this means, is when given the ball, these guys maximized the possessions and time their teams put them on the floor.

Now... Kobe accomplished this... 2 times. (in comparison... Jordan did it 9 times)

Despite his audacious scoring... because his usage rate was SO high it wasn't nearly as effective.

Think of this like a sales call center. You have a guy who sits atop the sales leader board (albeit not by very much) but ALSO receives 90% of the leads that come in... Sure its "productive"... but is it "efficient"?

Kobe's numbers were largely inflated not only because of the rule changes... but because of an abnormal usage rate.

Kobe's numbers decreased markedly as his level of competition in the finals improved. He was most impressive in games against teams like Toronto late in the season when they had given up and were on the tail end of a back to back...

F.) Conclusions: Kobe's regular season numbers, ESPECIALLY his post season numbers, team successes and personal accolades just don't match up DESPITE being gifted the EASIEST era of basketball which was specifically tailored for his game... but STILL was LESS efficient, proficient or successful as Jordan by a good margin.

Thank you and good day.

 

You're still here?

 

like a shepherd... lost lambs/saving and all that...

 

You should probably let Laker fans celebrate one of the all time greats without molestation somewhere in this site. Most any player can be picked apart somehow statistically, but admittedly Kobe more than some others. However, he also was the most dedicated athlete of his generation, and fans watched every game waiting in anticipation for him to pull out that one or two moves per game that made you say WOW!

In spite of all of his flaws, he was an entertainer without compare for nearly 20 years. He wasn't perfect, and he wasn't Mike, but we loved him in spite of all of his flaws. Maybe even because of them.