Game Debrief: What Went Right And What Went Wrong?

all this. i'll add that the midrange game never died--the very best scorers must have it because the very best defenses will only give you that shot. and to win, you have to beat those guys. this is part of why harden couldn't win--he never developed a reliable midrange game, and the best defenses could really cramp his style. it's why any team employing leonard at playoff time always has a chance, too, as he's basically the modern mj from midrange.

luka developed more midrange stuff over his career, imo, and it's why he's become an increasingly dangerous scorer (and why his teams have been better than harden's).

anyway, i don't think handchecking needs to come back. i think the court needs to be bigger and the three point line a little further out--maybe even just at the corners would do it. the league should have realized it was a problem when bruce bowen--a 50% ft shooter--lead the league in 3p% by basically only taking corner threes.

the thing that killed post play wasn't the three, imo. it was allowing zone defenses. this is why i always pushed back and everyone yelling at AD to just "get in the post". you can't just get in the post when they can sit a defender in front of and behind you. even shaq or wilt wouldn't quite be themselves if they played under those rules, imo.

that said, i don't know if we can go back to the old "illegal defense" rules, so i'm back at making the math on threes a little worse. also, you can call fouls in the post, too--on offense or defense. don't make me get on my "if nba refs just applied the existing rules, the game would be much better" soapbox.

 

The hand checking obsession is weird. It really came to the forefront because Riley Knicks team weren't that talented but basically a bunch of Trey Jemison so he started employing it and the rest of the league copied it. Add in the talent dilution from expansion the 90 had weak talent levels overall. This wasn't the Bad Boys style either as they just were physical but actually also talented

Anyway who says the scoring became to easy need to explain why pace adjusted offense was high in great 80s and only tanked in the 90sm. Hand checking was not part of any golden age of basketball

 

I still think if you push it out just a little bit, we are talking inches, it opens the game up to need scoring from all areas of the court. I think if you push it out, the great shooters like Curry will adjust and just keep on shooting but a lot of the guys who are marginal, will move into the mid game more. Percentages will drop to where 32%-36% will be the norm and then it equalizes what a paint player can contribute. Plus this comes with getting rid of the no hand checking rule, that allows some contact against shooters. It makes the game tougher and frankly, people like that. Why are the fans walking away? Is it because of the way the game is played? The players? Why??? We have to come to grips with that. I think it is the game style, but I am not completely sure of that.

 

The game, for most of my life, allowed hand checking. Only since 2004 has this been going on. The league scoring average has gone up considerably in that time and the perimeter players have taken over the game. Even the centers that are good, have had to develop a serviceable 3 point shot. Not sure where that would leave guys like Wilt, Kareem and Shaq?? Not sure they could start in the league today????

I will concede that perhaps just moving the line back will accomplish my goal. Whatever the NBA does, they should do it in small steps incrementally. Personally, I would like to see the big man have a comeback in this league, I would like to see them able to physically dominate, like they did during Shaq's era and prior. But would also like to see the elite 3 point shooters to still have a place in the game.


https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/how-removing-the-hand-check-rule-changed-the-nba-forever


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

 

i'm not sure i can grant either premise. as someone mentioned above, i'm not sure interest in the game has dropped as much as people say. and i'm not sure that if it has, making derek harper valuable again would fix it. like, i don't want people making contact with shooters. that's bad. but say, calling moving screens with regularity would make getting some of those looks more difficult. refs just don't have the balls to do it, imo. maybe afraid that the adjustment period would be unwatchable. but if draymond green couldn't lead block, curry would have to work harder for his shots, and i think that's more likely to accomplish what you want than letting people hit curry while he shoots or slide under him--two practices which aren't in the spirit of the game.

 

Well, I am thinking out loud in this thread. I believe the analytics on who is watching and I have read that the NBA is down 50% from it's high point. That is huge and if advertisers use this in negotiations, a lot could go wrong. It needs to be addressed. I am not the guy to address it. I would prefer a game where all types of players could find a way to be impactful. Whether you are a volume 3 point shooter, a paint dominator or a mid range master. Perhaps there is a way to allow a bit more physical play in the paint, while protecting the volume outside shooters??

Something like a hand check line, then behind it have a 3 point line, then you can't hand check of play certain types of defense outside of that line, but once you enter into the paint area rules change a bit???

Maybe, moving the line back will accomplish all my goals?? If it does, great, stop tinkering. If it doesn't, make another adjustment. Equalize value on the court.

 

I disagree completely that today’s players are “more skilled.”
They may have become better at dribbling and shooting, but they have become much worse at boxing out, rebounding, passing, having a mid range game, two man game, ball movement, having a real rivalry(they all love one another)and defending without fouling(majority of this falls on the League for changing the rules so dramatically).
For decades now, the fundamentals of the game have been pushed aside for the flashy play or 40ft Chuck. The viewers have left in droves because the games has become a watered down farce of what it used to be. I still watch, but it’s become a much less exciting game since glory days of the 1980s.

 

Again, I have to re-iterate this: There was hand-checking pre- and post-Riley's Knicks. Derrick Harper on the Mavs was a very different defender than he was with Riley's Knicks because he had to figure out a way to win with one of the least skilled but very physical teams he had.

Looks at the offensive rating (pace adjusted) on your second link- the offensive rating was very high in the 80's and 90's and nose-dived in the mid 90's because of Riley's influence and frankly lack of talent in the league.

If you look at the league you can't get away with non-skilled big men like Rambis or AC green anymore. The league roleplayers are significantly better now
https://www.theringer.com/2025/02/18/nba/nba-expansion-teams-las-vegas-seattle-adam-silver-future


I completely agree in pushing the corner 3 line back - there is no logic why that shot should be easier from a game mechanics standpoint but some of the griping of how it was better in the past is being misplaced IMO. You can bring back more post play by not including s*** basketball that was promoted by guys like Riley when the league was less talented

 

i challenge anyone to watch the Knicks/Rockets finals from the 90's and think the league isn't far more talented better than it was in the past. Population growth and Global expansion has created a larger talent pool and that is good for talent

 

Okay, one series with two lesser talented teams.
The Olajuwon back to back teams would wax any team in today’s game.
So would the Showtime Lakers.
So would the Bad Boy Pistons.
So would All six of Jordan’s teams.
So would all Five of the Duncan led Spurs teams.
So would any of Kobe’s five Championship squads.
With the exception of maybe 10 guys, today’s players are soft and completely uni- dimensional In comparison to previous decades.

 

I agree with you, I meant relative skill of shooting across the league. Not overall skill. I’m not one of those people who believes older generations weren’t as athletic or didn’t have skill.

 

You're using peak teams vs average - watch the Bulls/Jazz series for example and my god the Jazz arrgh. That team played big minutes to Greg Ostertag, Bryan Russle, Shandon Anderson. Those were not good players

Duncan's Spurs are the Kobe/Pau are modern NBA teams they both had significant foreign presence
If you look at 80's pre-expansion talented teams. 4 teams were added between 88 and 92 which clearly impacted the level of talent on each team. Jordan lucked out big time here and then international expansion kind of wiped this out starting in 00's. You went from a few guys like Hakeem and Schrempf to basically every team having a few internationals at least.

 

There are some changes that can influence shot selection, but we don’t know the outcome of those changes.

Making the court bigger: does this actually increase 3 pt attempts because it’ll be harder to close out?

Pushing the line further back: as above, do players range just increase a little bit and because close outs are harder, does every team have 2 shooters who just bomb from outside?

Create paint violations: can only be one attacker and one defender in the paint at a time. Does this bring back post moves as it’s a 1 on 1?

It’s all a bit difficult to say really. So I think the better question is, is this drop in viewership an actual problem?

How much of viewers are from other forms of viewership and not just cable; streaming, illegal streaming, viewing together etc? Are the viewership numbers greater than we believe because it’s both harder to watch games as rights have been split between so many companies and there are so many more ways of watching it now, phone, tv, web browser etc.

The league seems to be highly profitable so I’m not sure viewers aren’t there.

I think another good question is, what is competing with attention? Social media, on demand tv. People get their dopamine fix quicker and whenever they want. It’s why other sports are dying or having to change their models.

- tennis is flirting with rule changes
- cricket created a whole new format because of the attention deficit
- soccer/football: will have to do something because of how boring a game can be
- Olympic sports: in general are dead from a viewing point of view apart from once every 4 years
- can’t comment on the NFL as I don’t have the information on it

This is most likely a wide spread problem of our attention diets changing and not just a NBA problem. I’d say that improving end of 4th quarter flow could go a long way. The game takes 20 mins to get through the last 3 mins. Sometimes it’s just ridiculous. Improve that problem first - better flow will create a better product.

 

You get weird quirks that impact popularity as well. I mean the fact the NFL has games only once a week is actually a big selling point as that allow casuals to focus limited attention/money onto the product. Fantasy football, gambling is all easier to do with an NFL Schedule. Monday Night Football was an event: I remember in college it was time to head to the college bar Monday nights for example

 

I never have argued against the internationals not being a big impact. I agree with this point.
I just see the former decades as having more well rounded players with multiple skill sets.
Today there are some really great offensive players, but very few play both ends at the elite level. The “Superstars” of previous eras took pride in locking down their opponents as well as scoring on them.
As for that Jazz squad, you are leaving out the best pick and roll tandem of all time in Stockton and Malone. Those guys would be great in any era. They had a running mate as well in Jeff Hornacek who had a game very similar to Austin’s.

 

Uhhhhh, Futbol/Soccer has a Worldwide audience that literally dwarfs all of the other Professional Leagues combined.
It’s beloved in just about every single nation on the planet besides here.

 

From Yahoo Sports:


“The NBA is reportedly suffering from a decline in viewership. Fans around the world have been chiming in to provide potential reasons for why fewer fans are tuning into live games via traditional media networks, with some noting that the rise in streaming platforms such as League Pass is partly the cause. However, other sections of the league's fan base are pointing to a declining product, such as too many 3-point shots (like the Boston C Bags shot diet), technical fouls being called for hanging on the rim and a decrease in physicality.

In truth, the reasons behind the league's declining numbers are likely highly varied and very nuanced. Still, the discussion has been rife over the opening months of the season, despite certain big milestones, such as the Christmas Day viewing numbers.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/behind-nbas-falling-viewership-numbers-173555870.html

from Outkick.com:

“Four years later, the NBA has declined to such a degree that even the friendliest of the media allies can no longer defend the state of the league. Specifically, the NBA viewership is down 48% since 2012 and 28% on ESPN year-over-year.”

 

Incredible amount of one on one basketball in the second half.15 team assists half way through the 4th qrt

 

Hard to win without Rui and Jax. Felt like JJ got his tactics wrong starting Vando over Jemison at the 5. We missed Vando’s energy off the bench. Biggest concern now is LeBron’s health.