2015 Nba Draft Discussion: Russell, Nance Jr., Brown

Discussion in 'Lakers Discussion' started by LaVarBallsDad, Oct 14, 2014.

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  1. lakerfan2

    lakerfan2 - Lakers All Star -

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    ^ You do know Kaminsky is a 40%+ 3 point shooter right? He's not just a "uses his height" guy, he has really good footwork and pretty mobile for his size. He can take the ball up the floor and averages a decent amount of assists. No one is saying he's a lotto pick, he's a shot with the Houston pick which may end up being 15-25.
     
    lakerfan2, Dec 12, 2014
    #141
  2. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    Not everyone was surprised by Randle's ability to handle the ball coming into the professional. If you watched Randle in high school, then you knew he had had that ability. The only question was if that would translate to NBA.



    That's Julius in high school, and I'm sure if I looked harder there are other clips showcasing his abilities. There was a reason why he was the number 1 recruited player coming out of high school.

    To answer, your question; 'how can a player who is not always defensive aware have the ceiling of Marc Gasol defensive? Well, you can fix awareness at the age of 19. It's something that good coaches will make him better at by taking the time with him to cover that weakness in his game. If he works hard at it, he'll improve.

    You know who did the same thing? Marc Gasol. Read this scouting report.

    "He wasn't really a go-to guy for Girona on the offensive end (mainly because of Real Madrid’s double-teaming defense), but especially he doesn't make a great impact on the defensive end. His limited mobility gets exploited in pick-and-roll situations that the opponents throw at him; he's not a great intimidator, he allows smaller opponents to shoot over him; and given his superb size, he's not the best rebounder around."
    -Scouting the NBA Rights-Held Players at the 2008 Copa del Rey - 2/19/08

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz3LhdcRmvT
    http://www.draftexpress.com


    Now:
    'Much of what we documented about Gasol during his European career has held true during his rookie season in the NBA. Given his lack of vertical explosiveness and lateral quickness, he actually creates a surprising number of defensive turnovers (1.0 STLPG, 1.5 BLKPG); however, he still struggles whenever forced to guard perimeter oriented big men or the pick-and-roll. When guarding ball screens, the Grizzlies seem to hedge most frequently, which often results in Gasol getting caught outside of the three point arc and failing to rotate successfully back to his man. Gasol must improve upon his conditioning to improve his lateral quickness and pick-and-roll defense to avoid becoming a defensive liability moving forward. If he fails in this department and/or the Grizzlies don't improve their interior defense this offseason by surrounding him with more talent, we can expect to see Memphis continue their defensive struggles through another season.

    In instances where Gasol is defending the interior, he holds his ground well, although he rarely makes highlight-reel defensive stops. Since he's a step slow, he's a victim of quick-footed bigs possessing great wheel or seal moves which pin him on the backside of the offensive player. And although he'll never really be the type of intimidating, explosive defender the Grizzlies desperately need, Gasol still shows good fundamentals to counter the offensive skill sets of more talented NBA players and keep them out of the lane.

    Help side defense is the area in which Gasol must improve his defensive game the most. As we previously wrote, he often allows smaller defenders to shoot over him and lacks lateral quickness - both of which usually equate to subpar defense. Gasol also tends to play lackadaisically off the ball, rarely knocking down cutters and looking to aggressively box out on when shots goo up. If he improves on his work ethic and hustle, we should see him develop into a respectable NBA defender - particularly if he increases his tenacity against more athletic players. Being a member of a struggling defensive system like Memphis' certainly hurts Gasol's numbers, but the addition of another interior presence this offseason should help the team's defensive play.'

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz3LhdkPbHv
    http://www.draftexpress.com

    The 'Now" part was written in 09 and has Memphis has improved their defense so has Gasol; although Gasol is very defensively aware, very sound fundamentally, and has a very high IQ, and has improved this part of his game immensely. However, coming out of college into the NBA, 'defensive player of the year,' wasn't written all over him. He improved, surrounded by the right players/scheme, and he fits in perfect and does an excellent job.

    What have I seen about Okafor that I think I can he can be that player? I have seen a willingness from him to play defense and improve in that area so far...being coached by Mike will help at Duke. As the season progresses, I'm sure he'll continue to improve, put in the work, and become a better defensive player. If he doesn't, that's completely on him because he has the talent to be a very good defender in this league; but as I mentioned, as were the knocks on Gasol coming out of college, slow, immobile, can't hedge, Okafor has those same issues and Marc was able to work past them; I have a feeling Okafor will, too give the right opportunity and situation.
     
    LaVarBallsDad, Dec 12, 2014
    #142
  3. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Every one of those reports breaks down his individual defensive ability and I think we can both agree Marc is not the greatest individual defender. He's a much improved man defender and help defender, but it's his understanding of defense and his high IQ that drive his defensive ability. That's not to say Okafor isn't a smart kid, but I maintain I haven't seen anything from him to think he can develop into a Marc Gasol caliber defender. Honestly I don't get the point in arguing this anymore anyway. I don't see what you see apparently. Can he develop into Marc Gasol? I mean maybe, but I find that unlikely don't you?

    Are we arguing that Okafor CAN be Marc Gasol? I suppose any of these kids CAN be Marc Gasol. Towns could be Marc Gasol. Kaminsky could be Marc Gasol. They're all young and have their whole futures ahead of them.

    But I don't think any of them WILL be Marc Gasol. Okafor is a hell of a lot closer to Bynum and to Al Jefferson than he is to Marc Gasol. You've admitted as much. I don't get the point anymore in this argument.
     
    therealdeal, Dec 12, 2014
    #143
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  4. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    Here's my Scouting Report on Gasol from 2007. It's pretty funny, I think.

    MARC GASOL - 48th Pick of the Draft
    6'11 to 7'1 (usually 7' or 7'1), 265-268#
    22 years old
    Played for Akasvayu Girona
    FIBA champions, 2006

    What are people saying?
    The most common things you'll hear about Marc Gasol are that he has a high basketball IQ (+), he has good to very good hands (+), and he has poor conditioning (-). It is often said that he is a good team player (+), flashes a variety of post moves (+), passes well within the flow of the offense (+), is strong (+), but has limited quickness (-).

    The following also appear, with infrequency:
    Good vision, puts forth a great effort, good ballhandler, not a good athlete, takes good shots, a fundamentally sound player who is working on developing his post repertoire. While he seems more than to hold his own defensively, he is not a shotblocker and may not have the skill advantage over opposing bigs in the NBA that he does in Europe.

    What I saw:
    Physically, I see a very tall but apparently somewhat lanky player who has a big frame and room to grow. His physique looks a lot like older brother Pau's physique. He could add quality pounds to his frame with ease, it seems. A large frame that is currently fairly lean with some musculature.

    In a game setting, Marc seems to enjoy running the pick and roll, which he does fairly adroitly, using decent speed to get to the hoop. He fairly regularly takes contact yet succeeds in hitting the shots, including both layups and jumpers. He has the ability to score around the basket with either hand, even hitting layups left-handed while absorbing contact. He passes readily, hitting open men and cutters alike, unless he is very close to the rim for a score. Does drive occasionally, shows good handles when he does, but not great body control and speed. Marc will have to go to the basket with more authority or he will see more of his shots blocked and altered by body contact despite his strength. He tends to get up in the air a bit, tries to outmuscle his opponents. At the Center spot in the NBA, he will not have that luxury. Finally in terms of his offensive repertoire, Gasol can hit the 18 to 20 foot jumper with a nice stroke. He has some of the Euro touch, it seems. I noticed that he did a lot of his work out toward the perimeter, something that would not be ideal for a Center even in the triangle.

    Defensively, Marc is more than competent against generally less aggressive, weaker foes. He does get pushed around a bit because he doesn't keep his feet set defensively. He does not try to block many shots, but does serve to keep drivers out of the lane because of his size. He will have to work hard to become a good man-to-man defender, but would likely have the instincts and team-player mentality to be a solid help defender, making him the exact opposite of Kwame Brown, for instance.

    Player Comparisons:
    Frequently, his upside is likened to that of Mehmet Okur. On the downside, Marc Jackson's name appears. In between these extremes are several references to a less-talented Pau Gasol and the suggestion of Todd MacCulloch. With the exception of Pau, these are shooters and rebounders who do not have the athleticism or shotblocking skill necessary to be a dominant player, but they have all been serviceable as starters in the NBA. There is no reason to think that Marc does not have that potential as well. Here comes the bad part. While Pau was only 21 during his rookie season in the NBA, Okur made his debut at 23, MacCulloch at 24 (but gave only limited contributions until 26), and Jackson at 26 years of age. At 22 years of age, Marc Gasol could be as many as three years away from real contributions in the NBA. Depending upon what moves the Lakers make during the offseason, Gasol could be forced to develop on the fly. This move seems to have been generally successful for Andrew Bynum, but he both saw his ups and downs and is typically considered a gym rat. Gasol's work ethic could be tested immediatedly.

    What might we expect?
    The closest estimate for someone of Gasol's position and draft position playing in a Phil Jackson team is approximately 196 minutes across 22 games. Will he remain in Europe, come to the D-League, or play in the NBA? I think the most likely answer is the first, followed by some hybrid of the second and third answers. All this depends upon Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Andrew Bynum's health and trade status. If one of them goes, Gasol has a solid shot at coming to the USA, spending some time in the D-League. If two of them are gone, Gasol probably comes to the NBA immediately.

    In 8.9 minutes per game, what might we expect from Marc Gasol? 3.8 points, 0.3 assists, 2.5 boards, 0.3 blocks. Assuming he never becomes a starter, and there is good reason to believe that, Gasol's numbers would likely top out around 6 points, 4 boards.

    Recent stats:
    EuroCup 2007: 8.6 pts, 4.3 reb, 1.1 apg
    U20 Euro Championship 2005: 16.8 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.4 apg

    DRAFT GRADE: B Gasol has decent upside and a professional lineage. As a 48th pick, he has almost no expectations upon him. He will almost certainly contribute at some point.
     
    trodgers, Dec 12, 2014
    #144
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  5. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    Actually, neither do I see the point...LOL. It was the first thing I responded too in the morning. Either way, if he turns into Hibbert, with a more refined post game, great; I don't think he'll turn into Jefferson. I think he has a higher ceiling defensively. Jefferson sucks defensively. Either way, give me Okafor, Towns, or Winslow, and I'm good.
     
    LaVarBallsDad, Dec 12, 2014
    #145
  6. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    That's my thing...we have a very good idea of what these players are coming into the league and they have comparison or players they will project out too and we give them a ceiling to reach for...that's fine. However, I've watched a player for 19 years who was supremely gifted, but as he aged kept adding things to his game to beat the odds/expectations of what people had anticipated for him...then again, Kobe doesn't come around very often...

    Interesting scouting report :)
     
    LaVarBallsDad, Dec 12, 2014
    #146
  7. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah I stopped this morning and tried to figure out what the hell we were talking about. :D

    I would love if he turned into Bynum. Offensive genius and a developed defensive player. I'd love that. I loved Bynum when he was engaged.
     
    therealdeal, Dec 12, 2014
    #147
  8. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    . Insight: Gasol is averaging 19.5 points per game this season. His primary defender will be Charlotte's Al Jefferson, who allows 1.01 Points
    Per Shot - currently worst among starting centers.

    Found that interesting about all Jefferson...I sure hope Okafor isn't that bad...LOL. I like Bynum when he was engaged. I'd love Okafor to turn into a healthy Bynum. Heck, I'd take that in a HEARTBEAT...
     
    LaVarBallsDad, Dec 12, 2014
    #148
  9. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah, but healthy Bynum was arguably the best C in basketball :)
     
    trodgers, Dec 12, 2014
    #149
  10. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    As long as Kobe is healthy I think that pick is going to be 6-10. He can't keep playing like this all year long so how long does he last before something forces him to sit down?
     
    therealdeal, Dec 13, 2014
    #150
  11. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    Kobe is already exhausted; we could all see that. He'll get hurt before he sits down, IMO. I think that will happen before the All-Star break. We played as well as we could yesterday and still almost lost the game. I'm not too worried about it, yet.

    I do think we will finish this trip undefeated, though. We'll beat the Timberwolves and Indiana...we just have to hope during the season that Minnesota and Utah improve more than us which I think will be the case...hopefully by the end of the season, we're 4th or 5th, and that's with Kobe. Without him, we might finish in the top 3.
     
    LaVarBallsDad, Dec 13, 2014
    #151
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  12. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    What an embarrassment of riches for Kentucky inside this season. Towns, Cauley-Stein, and Dakkari Johnson. Just crazy size and length for a college team. I think all three of those guys goes in the 1st round this season of the NBA draft.

    Watching this team, I'd take any of those three when we can. Towns, Cauley-Stein, and Johnson in that order. Johnson might be available with our Houston pick.
     
    therealdeal, Dec 13, 2014
    #152
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  13. Daniel Beltz

    Daniel Beltz - Rookie -

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    I would take any kid from Kentucky with our pick from Houston. Instant chemistry with Julius Randle and another solid piece to build around for the future. Maybe the draft gods will be kind to us and have our lottery ball magically appear in the top 5 so we could get another solid piece. Too early to tell what will happen in June.
     
    Daniel Beltz, Dec 13, 2014
    #153
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  14. ElginTheGreat

    ElginTheGreat - Lakers MVP -

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    I think whoever grabs Cauley-Stein is gonna end up with a steal. The guy just impresses me a little bit more every game I watch.
     
    ElginTheGreat, Dec 14, 2014
    #154
  15. Battle Tested20

    Battle Tested20 Moderator Staff Member

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    I would still take Towns over Okafor right now, but apparently Okafor went off tonight!

    25pts, 20 reb (Freshman record), 3 blks, on 10-14 from the field and 5/11 from the FT line.
     
    Battle Tested20, Dec 15, 2014
    #155
  16. OmarE

    OmarE - Lakers Starter -

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    Jahlil Okafor 25 Points vs. Elon (2014):
     
    OmarE, Dec 16, 2014
    #156
  17. Kenzo

    Kenzo - Lakers All Star -

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    ^ Playing against kids, smaller, weaker and shorter does not count ;)... It looks Wilt like.
    On a serious note, i would WELCOME him in a Lakers family with open arms.
     
    Kenzo, Dec 16, 2014
    #157
  18. ShowTime_IR

    ShowTime_IR - Rookie -

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    I don't understand why people here really believe the Lakers will get the top 5 pick. right now they are almost there, and they will have a better second half of the season than the first. it's just dosen't gonna happen with Kobe on the team.
     
    ShowTime_IR, Dec 16, 2014
    #158
  19. ElginTheGreat

    ElginTheGreat - Lakers MVP -

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    Well, I just dont think we are very good. We have flashes here and there, and I will keep cheering us on, but I jus don't think we have the talent to do much this season. I think we are playing Kobe way too much and we will pay for that in the second half of the season. Given our defense and Byron's headscratching decisions during games, I haven't seen much that makes me think the second half will be any better than the first.

    I mean, when I look at the schedule for March and April, i see a lot of teams that will be battling for playoff positions. I just don't think we are gonna win too many of those games.

    The only teams I can somewhat comfortably say will finish worse than us are the Twolves and the 76ers. I still see us at somewhere between 20 and 25 wins will give us a solid shot at the pick.
     
    ElginTheGreat, Dec 16, 2014
    #159
  20. Kenzo

    Kenzo - Lakers All Star -

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    We'll end up with 6-8th pick, just our luck.
     
    Kenzo, Dec 16, 2014
    #160
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