LABron James Discussion: The Final Year?

guessing it's about him not being super effective attacking from the perimeter off the dribble. not much in the way of pull up midrange. i agree that that's not everything, but it's what people think of when they think of isolation offense (kobe, sga stuff).

most of what you describe is stuff in the paint/post, and i wish he'd work from there more often, too.

 

You’re really on a roll aren’t ya? Your happy place. Team’s still a bunch better with him (healthy) than without. Will be tough to lose the overall impact of his game. Without him coming … no “respectability” and no Ring for who knows how long, no AD, no Luka and even with Luka NO puncher’s chance this year. IMO.

 

I think LeBron is wrong.

 

Lebron is going to go for 3 and more relevant the contact. You see at his absolute peak in 2012 to 2020 (the solomon ankle roll was probably the end of his peak? Playoff PER was great but dropped after that smaller sample size and all). During this absolute dominant run by any measure (Lebron and War matched by KG and Duncan only, finals numbers only jordan comparable), it was basically a lot of what @Juronimo posted and off the dribble it was the pull up 3 or go for the AND1. Extremely effective but not as pretty?

 

and now he doesn't have the off-the-line speed to generate those and-1s, so his isos at the top are predictable and something opposing teams invite. his penetration from out there is basically a version of an anthony mason walk down now, which begs the question...why not just make the catch at the elbow in triple threat if that's how we're going to operate?

anyway, the question was whether he's good in isolation, and i think he can exploit mismatches in the paint with a wide array of shots and interior passing, but the days of being able to just hand him the ball and expect to get a decent shot off are gone, imo.

 

I just don't think it's accurate or true that he wasn't extremely effective in isolation or in the context of this conversation that it didn't require skill. He's just a much bigger body then basically anyone who attacked from the perimeter (Luka probably the best comparison and Lebron is bigger. I was thinking maybe Zion?, Magic did a lot of his work with his back to the basket from the perimeter from what I recall in the half court, does Banchero have a good bag?) so the lack of bag talk is a bit disingenuous. The off the dribble 3s and spin moves are just not something you see from guys unless you're these twigs like Durant.

With regards to this team at this time my biggest concern is the jumper is not back to what it was. He was able to offset the drop in athleticism with marked improvement in his 3 pointer. He should and needs to be a Rui type sniper IMO to maximize Luka and AR and his jumper just isn't what it was just last year.

 

I don’t understand how can I be clearer. Effective doesn’t mean good.

To illustrate, Pau 1-on-1 skills are far superior to that of Shaq. Shaq, however was more effective.

Shaq was able to get by as he aged and became less effective, because size doesn’t go away. But late career Shaq, while probably having the same level of athleticism as NBA-period Sabonis, wasn’t nearly as effective. Why? Skills.

Bron is the same, but the problem is, his size, while still way above average for his position, isn’t nearly as overwhelming as Shaq’s. And now he is even worse than late-career Shaq at generating ISO points.

Last year he was somewhat able to mask it because he was shooting 40%+ from 3, so that one “skill” in non-post isolation that he did have served him well.

This year he is shooting 30% (?).

I never talked about his efficiency. I talked about skill. And it sucked 20 years ago and it sucks today.


Jokic has skills. Jokic, by the NBA ”standards” doesn’t have athleticism. Duncan. Luka (yes, yes, deceleration, body control bla bla bla). Austin. Andre Goddamn Miller. Even CP2.5.

----

I've been taught to back my s*** with data, and sometimes, in basketball is hard. So... if any of you have any -- send it my way.

However, going by the NBA point-per-possession stat, Bron was in 60.4% percentile last year.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*James&SeasonYear=2024-25&dir=D&sort=PPP

Considering that includes 3s and fast break drives (not sure about generated points in that stat) he was quite effective with, I would imagine ISO is MUCH MUCH MUCH worse.

He is at 61.8% this year, so perhaps he's isn't WORSE than last year, but he is certainly not GOOD at it.

He was at 76.6% during his peak (2015 is the earliest the stat is collected from), BTW, so he was never elite.

That being said, last year D'Angelo was #3 in PPP... so the stat may be, um, not really indicative of a "goodness" LOL.

 

Is it though? For sure and backed by stats (that would be waaaaaay too small of a sample size)?

 

Sorry mate. We have very different definitions of 1-on-1 game then. I don't know in what universe spin move layup, usually in-transition and with his speed and size a 1-on-1 skill. But well.. you think it is, then... we are talking about different things.

For example, I haven't seen him use a headfake, a hesitation or a crossover in like, forever. Are those not 1-on-1 skills? He doesn't have them and has never had them (or used consistently).

You can find a video of Shaq shooting and making 3s. Doesn't mean he is a shooter.

 

Hell even Lebron's old a** shoots a higher pct from the field ( 46% and 3 pt 36% line ) in the 4th quarter, than Luka this season.

 

helps when nobody guards you anymore because they want you to shoot it?

let the other team pick who gets the shot between lebron and luka and see what happens.

this is lame.

 

I mean doesn't the fact that Lebron was second team all nba at age 39 indicate to you that something is flawed with this idea that Lebron has no skills?. If by definition he's getting by on athleticism and court vision how is that even possible (oh it shooting and play like a PG so he's able to dribble I'm assuming?). Shaq was nowhere near as good as Lebron starting at age 32 or so. And the whole big idea is awkward as Jokic and Duncan didn't break guys off the dribble from 3 point line regularly - the Lebron archetype (luka, bancher) is super rare because it's very hard players at that size who can be the engine of your offense from the perimeter.

 

that is correct. His "fitting in" lasted exactly one game. His ego is too big to accept a lesser role. What makes him great also makes him suck.

 

Never said "no skills". He is a great passer and, when he wants, a great defender. His passing ability is what kept him. Had he been 1ast/2to dude the last 3 - 4 years, we should have gotten rid of him in a salary dump

Finally... have you seen Jokic post game? Bron doesn't have 5% of that.

 

He's been a high volume efficient scorer as he's aged - still doesn't compute passing helps mitigate doubles but defense ain't helping that. This is a guy whose consistently gotten the best out of Kawhi Leonard of all people even as he has gotten older.

With regards to Jokic who has had a better post game them him is a weird standard - he's just a bizarro world combination of magic johnson passing and ridiculous Kyrie Irving-like touch. He still isn't attacking from the top of the arc and Lebron definitely developed a good post game - the dirk fade aways is what got him the Lebronto meme

 

He does. More than Bron imo.

 

It hurts me to share negative things said about our players



make it stop LT!

or maybe we just remove the player(s) people talk crap about…

 

Probably next year he’s gone. As a player he’s still a big strong talented guy who’s at least average on D, a great passer, rebounds and can score the ball. We’re not deep enough yet to not need all of that.

 

Ah, absolutely. But let's just say... if we have an opportunity to trade him and his 50mil... I am all ears.