Head Coach Discussion: Canned Ham, Who Is Our New Coach?

Meh..my boy is getting killed out there on D , with regularity. I want him fresh in the 2nd halves, 30mins or more, is knocking down his effectiveness. I'd rather see him give me 30min off the bench, than 35plus starting. It's better for him and the team moving forward.

 

He should come off the bench. Especially now, without a backup PG.

Now.. I do like Mays too, even for just 10-15 mins a night.not arguing with you on that.

 

Agree.about Mays just having another competent ball handler for 10 minutes versus playing AR along with Max or JHS is a noo brainer

 

Lol. So I cited the full 2023 playoff lineup data, as well as a full half season of three-man lineup data, but it "aged poorly" because of...one box score plus/minus?

Vando played a great game last night, Prince was awful. But lets actually look at this with some nuance instead of taking a victory lap off a box score plus/minus (btw, in the last game against Chicago when Vando also supposedly showed he should start he was...completely neutral in plus/minus).

Yes, the defense was much more disruptive with Vando out there. The Warriors' had a 15.4% turnover rate when Vando was out there and just 7.9% when he was not. Their 2pt shooting percentage was also worse when Vando was on the court. But, strangely, they actually got more open threes when Vando was playing than when he wasn't (https://x.com/Tim_NBA/status/1751627909528228135?s=20). Despite getting more open threes when Vando was playing, the Warriors only made 31% of their threes in those minutes and made 63% when Vando was on the bench. Seems rather fluky. I have no idea why Vando being out there coincided with our giving up more open threes, it may not have anything to do with him at all. But I think that huge disparity between how the Warriors made threes with him on vs. off, while getting more good looks at threes with him on, is a big part of that +30 plus/minus (in addition to him just playing really well).

In my previous post I described how the DLo/AR/LeBron/Vando/AD started out by putting up insane net ratings, but as teams realized they could just ignore Vando (and AD) as shooters it started to tank our halfcourt offense and trend toward a net-neutral lineup. Guess what, that exact thing happened within last night's game!

https://x.com/Tim_NBA/status/1751478339888455962?s=20

That lineup had an expected points per possession of 1.34 in the second quarter and 1.30 in the third quarter. That's really good. But in the 4th quarter they started to completely ignore AD and Vando as shooters and pack the paint against LeBron. The expected points per possession fell to a very bad 0.83 in the fourth quarter and completely awful 0.66 in the overtime sessions. To be fair, a lot of the bad halfcourt offense in the overtimes had to do with fatigue. But the point still stands. It took some incredible shotmaking from LeBron, as well as taking opportunities in transition (which Vando does help with) to outperform the really messy halfcourt offense. The lineup ended having a pretty bad 0.87 ePPP for the night.

This is exactly what we saw from the Warriors in the playoffs too. They like to do all their beautiful game, egalitarian off-ball movement stuff at the beginning of games/series. That's when Vando on Curry is really useful. But when they get serious and start spamming the high P&R with Steph and Dray, and then ignore Vando as a shooter on the other end, that's when it gets dicey.

Thankfully I don't think we'll have to keep having this argument for much longer because I think this DLo for Murray trade is going to happen. If/when it does, Murray can slot in as the POA defender and we won't need to use Vando in that role and have him gum up the offense. I stand by what I said, I think we should start DLo/Max/Prince/LeBron/AD. Max can handle some of the POA duties and just be a spot-up threat on offense. Prince can be a wing defender (where he's decent) rather than a POA defender (where he's terrible).

 

Forgetting the trade which may or may not happen, you would rather "maybe" be a little stronger on D with inexperienced, and often beaten too, Max to keep Prince in the starting lineup over the CLEARLY awesome good stuff offensively with AR & DLO starting with LeBron and AD. You and Slick just ignore what LeBron and AD said about that lineup last night. And LeBron supposedly wanted DLO gone, but seems not when this, like last year is going on offensively. The trade off for marginal, questionable improvement on D is NOT worth moving AR to the bench again. Especially when Ham is rotating those two guys in and out for breathers and could give them more rest if he'd get off his slow a** like everything else and utilize Mays some now. I disagree completely. There's other ways with the depth on this team to deal with your negatives on Vando if/when they again start overriding all the goodness on offense it allows. We have the size, depth and talent if Ham wasn't clueless about it being all utilized.

 

Yes, it was a close game because Prince got us to -21. With Vando was a blowout victory. Spot the difference?

 

I spot what you are trying to say, but to pin it all on Prince is ridiculous.

 

Here's the copy paste of the article I linked on the prior page replying to @sk2408 and Slick. It's all about LeBron and AD ad nauseam for the past couple of years .... no s*** Sherlock. AND "Defense" is overrated with today's game needing scoring power to keep up, also said a number of times by Slick. So here's the answer to the best offense we can provide for Slick and the best way to allow it to happen, with AR and DLO both starting and just be smart about the minutes. Utilize Mays for crissakes. And Rui. And Cam when he comes back. And listen to what your two MAIN guys are saying here.

Lakers ride last season’s starting group to win over Warriors. Is this the breakthrough?
By Jovan Buha
5h ago
71

SAN FRANCISCO — With one minute and 55 seconds left in the first half of the Lakers’ 145-144 double-overtime win over the Golden State WarriorsSaturday night, LeBron James checked into the game during the stoppage in play for Jarred Vanderbilt’s free-throw attempts.

D’Angelo Russell, believing the substitution was for him, walked to the Lakers’ bench and sat next to the coaching staff. After Vanderbilt’s first free throw, the coaching staff quickly addressed the mistake, swapping Russell back in for Taurean Prince.

For the second consecutive game, the Lakers’ primary starting lineup when healthy after last season’s trade deadline — Anthony Davis, James, Vanderbilt, Austin Reaves and D’Angelo Russell — played the final two minutes of the first half, sparking a 12-4 run to give the Lakers a 68-63 lead at halftime.

They then briefly played together midway through the third quarter, leading to four unanswered points before Davis exited the game with hip spasms that temporarily left him unable to move on the hardwood for several minutes. The unit reassembled midway through the fourth, playing all but four seconds of the final 15:36, as the Lakers survived several haymakers from Stephen Curry, who scored a game-high 46 points and made several go-ahead buckets.

“They’ve been through a lot of wars once they came together at the deadline last year and the way we pushed through the rest of the season and the playoffs,” Lakers head coach Darvin Ham said. “But having that group, that five, the way they know each other, they understand each other’s rhythm, it’s a great luxury to have.”



That hasn’t always been the case, though. Ham has been reluctant to not only start the group, but even play them during the middle portions of games. Since Vanderbilt’s season debut on Dec. 2, Reaves hasn’t missed a game, Davis and Vanderbilt have each missed one and James and Russell have each missed four. There have been plenty of chances to use the lineup. Yet prior to Saturday, it had only played 11 total minutes across five games all season.

Against the Warriors, in a game so tight it went to two overtimes, the Lakers rediscovered the magic of last season’s starting five. The Lakers certainly relied on the historic brilliance of James (36 points, a career-high 20 rebounds and 12 assists) to win the rematch of last season’s Western Conference semifinals series, but their old starting lineup made the difference. The unit outscored Golden State by 14 points the 19 minutes it played together — nearly double their previous plus-minus number.

Vanderbilt, in particular, was a plus-minus darling Saturday – the Lakers were a team-best plus-30 in his career-high 41 minutes. He had 14 points, nine rebounds, five assists and four steals.

Vanderbilt was the team’s projected starting small forward early in training camp, but after he was forced to miss almost two months with a nagging heel injury, Prince replaced him as the starter, exceeded modest expectations and earned the trust of the coaching staff. Vanderbilt appeared physically limited until the past couple of weeks, when he’s begun to resemble the athletic and energetic defensive menace that helped the Lakers post the league’s second-best defense after the trade deadline last season.


GO DEEPER

'Go be Dennis Rodman'. The making of Jarred Vanderbilt, the Lakers' defensive stopper

During the past six games, Vanderbilt is averaging 11.0 points, 6.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists and 2.2 steals in 26.5 minutes per game. The Lakers have exploited the way teams defend Vanderbilt — or, in many cases, don’t defend him — by having him make timely cuts across the lane and relentlessly attack the offensive glass. Most impressively, he’s posting shooting splits of 61.5 percent from the field, 60.0 percent from 3 and 71.4 percent from the free-throw line while looking far more comfortable on that end of the floor.

“You can see the impact he’s having each and every game,” Ham said. “Doing all the dirty work, taking the toughest matchups. He got back healthy. But it was a matter of time before he had to get back into game shape. He’s there now. … We just love him to death. Just his work ethic, his blue-collarism, it’s unbelievable. And I’m happy that it’s back in full form.”

To be clear, the Russel-Reaves-Vanderbilt-James-Davis lineup isn’t perfect. Vanderbilt has largely been an offensive minus for most of his career and this season. Reaves and Russell are nearly unplayable together at times because of their collective defensive issues. There’s a lot of pressure on Davis and James to get downhill and play with force in this configuration. The unit was ultimately played off the floor in the beginning of the team’s 4-0 defeat to Denver in the Western Conference finals.

But for a Lakers team who often cites it lack of continuity and chemistry because of injuries, a lineup that has actually played and succeeded together seems like a reasonable solution, at least until the roster is officially settled at the trade deadline.

“We just have chemistry and we have a lot of minutes logged together, so we know what we want to do,” James said. “It’s a team that was in the Western Conference finals last year and made some plays in the second round and things of that nature so, with myself, AR, Vando, D-Lo and AD, we just, we know where everybody is at and we work well together.”

In contrast with Vanderbilt, Prince had one of his worst games of the season against Golden State. He went scoreless (0-for-2) in 24 minutes, adding three rebounds, one assist and one steal. The Lakers were a game-worst minus-22 in his time on the floor.

Prince has mostly been fine this season. He’s shooting 38.9 percent on 3s, with that percentage notably dipping in the corners (35.2 percent) and on wide-open attempts (36.3 percent). He’s been overtaxed handling the primary perimeter assignments that should go first to Vanderbilt, then to Cam Reddish or Max Christie depending on the matchup. He’s been more effective at shooting guard instead of small forward given his physical limitations and below-average rebounding for a wing.

For most good teams, Prince would be an 18-to-22-minute-per-game bench player who occasionally plays more if he’s having a hot shooting night. But Ham has treated him as a starting lock, even giving him more leeway than Reaves and Russell, the Lakers’ third- and fourth-best players in some order, at various points this season.

Vanderbilt is the more natural fit next to Reaves and Russell, covering them on the perimeter defensively and on the defensive glass. Prince’s shooting and gravity are both important traits for a Lakers offense that often struggles from beyond the arc, but Vanderbilt’s defense, energy and rebounding lately have been game-changers.

When asked if he’d consider starting Vanderbilt and returning to last season’s starting group, Ham evaded the question.

“Well, right now, I’ll consider me getting something to eat, a nice glass of wine and consider sleeping very soon here,” Ham said. “Getting a good night’s sleep. No lineup questions, please.”

Ham was asked a follow-up question about the success of the group and said he could see the lineup becoming a closing staple even if they won’t necessarily start games.

“It’s not about always starting that way, but you know you’re going to get to it,” Ham said. “Every coach has a finishing six or seven, group of six or seven guys that he knows he can potentially finish with. … But best believe, when it’s time to finish the game, the game is on the line, it’s a good five to have in your back pocket.”


GO DEEPER

What I’m hearing about Lakers’ trade deadline plans

Davis, who said he’s “fine” after his hip spasms, was also asked if the lineup from last season should be playing more. He declined to answer, putting the onus on Ham.

“That’s on coach,” Davis said. “That’s on coach.”

After a rough month following winning the In-Season Tournament, the Lakers have won five of seven games, climbing back above .500 to 24-23. They’re still just ninth in the West, but they’re only 1.5 games back of the No. 8 Dallas Mavericks and 2.5 games back of the No. 7 New Orleans Pelicans.

Over their past seven games, they’re seventh in points scored per 100 possessions and seventh in net rating, a notable improvement for a group that ranks 20th in offense and 18th in net rating or the season. Saturday’s victory marked the second consecutive game the Lakers have set their season-high in points.

“It was just one of those wins where it just showed our character,” Ham said. “Our group is really coming together.”

The question now, of course, is if Saturday’s success is a breakthrough moment that will lead to sustained change, prioritizing what worked last season and is beginning to work again now that it’s been given the chance.

 

Meh...Buha is a Flippers hack but..I did notice that, you skipped over a couple of things here, in your neverending quest, to be "right" about something.

" To be clear, the Russel-Reaves-Vanderbilt-James-Davis lineup isn’t perfect. Vanderbilt has largely been an offensive minus for most of his career and this season. Reaves and Russell are nearly unplayable together at times because of their collective defensive issues. There’s a lot of pressure on Davis and James to get downhill and play with force in this configuration. The unit was ultimately played off the floor in the beginning of the team’s 4-0 defeat to Denver in the Western Conference finals."

And this part ....

It’s not about always starting that way, but you know you’re going to get to it,” Ham said. “Every coach has a finishing six or seven, group of six or seven guys that he knows he can potentially finish with. … But best believe, when it’s time to finish the game, the game is on the line, it’s a good five to have in your back pocket.”

It's not as cut and dried, as you are intent on making it. We have a difference of opinion on this subject. That's cool..wins are wins regardless.

I have zero doubts about making the playoffs, regardless of the starting lineup. I don't however, think that 5 is our best look in the playoffs.

Again... I am 1000% NOT..
On this..." We'll be lucky to make the play-in, unless we start that lineup"! Debbie Downer, Jazz No..not at all.

 

No need to overthink this.

Start Vando Ham.

Then we try to further improve the roster with some moves.

 

Jeezus crist Slick no matter what he writes covering the Lakers now, intelligently apparently, as many of us HERE feel the same way with many of his articles .... you dismiss every time with that stupid statement. Who said it was perfect? Your solution, starting 2 non shooters and pretty much non offensive players in both Vando and Reddish is a hell of a lot less perfect, and puts a lot more load on DLO to create a lot more every time when they are having other than LeBron "handle" the ball constantly, to conserve energy not having to do it all. (Why he ******g thought Westbrook would be a good idea to have here) Clank, clank, clank and if DLO is off for a quarter or half that's 3 guys very potentially clanking. I and We have eyes. The people writing about it include some that are very knowledgeable IMO, have eyes. With the quality of the things you go to war on with your opinions I trust my own eyes now and those of other very smart people here and that cover the league who see the same thing .... one hell of a lot more than you saying the blue sky is lime green.

 

You are overreacting man, I specifically said that Reddish and Vanderbilt, wouldn't play as many minutes as Reaves or Russell. We started Javale for a short time boost, and started Avery Bradley during the chip season. Two non shooters that started the game, and we had the best record in the West, before the bubble. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't care about being in sync with everyone else, and everyone else don't even agree on the subject.

I'm still trying to understand, what's supposed to big this deal anyway, with what I said. It's not like Cam or Jarred would be playing the entire 1st quarter or something.

You just get obsessed, over the very thought (gasp), of Austin going to bench for some reason. It's better for him and the team IMO.

D'Angelo is the PG, Cam and Jarred have decent enough handles ,to aid Lebron in pushing the ball, if it's not in D'Angelo's hands. That gives us 5 guys, that can handle the ball too.

Cutting to the basket and getting out in transition, creates space and opportunities to get easy buckets too. 3pt shooting isn't the end all, be all, component of winning basketball.

The HC just told you that, who starts isn't as important, as who finishes, or who is playing in key moments of the game.

Much ado about nothing IMO, BUT..
Perhaps you truly fear, not making the playoffs at all, or something. Me...I think that's a ridiculous notion, for this squad, as currently equipped, regardless of who the starting 5 is.

 

don't go down with this ship. i do think some of what happened in the last game was flukey, but the bloggers were wrong about vando and his fit with the starting lineup, as was ham.

 

I hate this idiot lol
Prince starting again. He's helpless

 

"no lineup questions please"

--Hambone

 

we are down 30, and he plays an obviously tired Lebron and most starters except AD all game with another game tomorrow. Dumb***

 

If they don’t Lane Kiffin his a%# off the team bus tonight I may give up emotionally on this season.

Why start Prince when Vando has been KILLIN’ it and we have our best +\- when he’s on the court? Just boggles the mind.

 

he'll probably let Bron rest tomorrow