Head Coach Discussion: Canned Ham, Who Is Our New Coach?

That's debatable..it depends on the players you have. I don't believe that we can win a chip without them being healthy, the league is too good. They are the foundation of the team. However take this year's team..if Nunn played and we added a guy like Wood from Houston..that same squad would look totally different. They aren't lockdown defenders but they aren't terrible either. However both posses the ability to get buckets sometimes tough buckets. I also think that the kids that played down the stretch are a better look than what we started out with. I'm not as down on this roster as some, we have the ingredients to compete if our two stars are healthy(well we need to be reasonably healthy overall) . There are some lower level roster moves that can be made with our current assets IMO. We don't need a blowup and restart at all. I get the gist of where you are coming from though no doubt.

 

are you trying to say that westbrook has near the hoop iq that lebron does, though? because it seems like you're using A/TO to do that, and i think it's simply false. it's clear which one knows how to manipulate defenses, etc.

i have a lot less respect for drive and dish guys, tbh. dwayne wade wasn't a sharp player; honestly, neither is harden. those two and westbrook got assists because they forced 4 on 3 situations. as they stopped being able to do so, they stopped being very effective as distributors. lebron finds guys from the standstill.

anyway, back to coaching: vogel was right to build a defense and then just lean on lebron/AD, imo. would a better offense be great? absolutely. but we won a title without it. we missed the playoffs by a mile with a bad defense, and we lost in the first round with a good defense and the same injury problems.

so let's hope ham starts in the right place. and yes, westbrook is a huge detriment there.

 

Much like Shaq and Kobe. Lebron had 2 finals duds, that if he were the greatest, should have won. 2011 and 2014. When you compare the best ever, unfortunately, Shaq, Kobe and Lebron each have 2 finals losses that take them out of the running. If Lebron wins in 2011 and 2014, the argument is extremely difficult. He would have 6, like MJ, with 6 finals MVPs. Lebron's losses in 2007,2015, 2017 and 2018 were matters of circumstances not his fault. 2007 was the worst Finals team ever. 2015, Love and Kyrie both out when it mattered and Lebron still took the Cavs to a 2-1 lead before the Warriors ran the table. 2017 and 2018 was the Durant effect that ruined Lebron's run in Cleveland and diluted the NBA.

 

Russ is quite a bit more turnover prone than Lebron. On the surface their raw numbers might look close but Russ turned it over 17.3 times per 100 plays while Lebron was at 12.5.

 

I’m not trying to say that at all. I even said Russ isn’t anywhere near the caliber of player that Lebron is. My point is that there is no doubt that media darlings benefit from the narratives spoken about them whereas the more contentious stars like Westbrook who antagonise the media get a worse narrative.

I mean Lebron is quite turnover prone, he is a scorer who gets labelled a pass first guy and has had seasons where his defence has been questionable. But he gets a pass whereas it can be argued that Westbrook gets piled on. Don’t you find that interesting?

That’s a really great point and I think we’d also have to include things like hockey assists and points generated from usage etc. The comparison is probably fairly close in terms of their playmaking abilities. Where Lebron has him beat is just being able to slow the game down in the playoffs and have the whole game go through him with scoring and assisting - just a totally different level of player in the playoffs. This is why Lebron is an all time great and rightfully so.

Like I said above I’m not trying to compare Lebron and Russ as players. Just more as the narratives surrounding them.

 

This take me reminds me of Don from this scene at the 41 second mark from Mad Men

 

Not sure where you get your stats from, this was from NBA.com



Lebron also defends more and scores much more effectively. And although there is no stat for it, I believe his dimes lead to less obvious scoring than Westbrooks do. 7.3% lifetime FGA % difference? That's huge. Lebrons 3pt shooting is acceptable. Russ's is not. LBJ makes nearly 3x as many per game. There is a balance that Westbrook just does not have. There is good reason why people do not compare the two.

 

Did we jump too soon?

He let it be known (unofficially) he wasn't interested and didn't like how we did Frank. But there's no gigs and if we were finally willing to get with the program on years and coaching control, like we gave Ham, wonder if that would have been a different conversation.

 

narrative is Russ is a stat padder that dont win when it matters, i see nothing wrong with that narrative

 

Basketball reference - NBA stats doesn’t include any ABA seasons so Moses Malone isn’t included - but he is in the top 4.

I’m not here trying to compare the two players - it would be asinine to say Westbrook is anywhere near Lebron’s level. Westbrook is a top 50 player. Lebron is a top 5. That’s a gulf.

But lets not act like Westbrook is some rubbish dumpster of a player - because that’s wrong too.

 

Of course, not only that, we hired the wrong guy and set him up to fail miserably

 

think it's the 4 rings and 9 finals appearances, almost none of which came with a kevin durant-level teammate (i'd argue 2020 AD was that and 12/13 wade was close enough). had westbrook had more success in terms of winning, i think the stories would be more similar, career-wise.

but...

last year's westbrook was most definitely that? i'm not sure why we're discussing careers when we don't employ 2014 russell westbrook. we employ the team-destroying 2022 version. the advanced stats matched the eye test here. we would have been better off if he just didn't play.

shifting gears to the thread topic:

i'm ok with ham. snyder's good, and we should have hired him years ago and/or not let him go when he was an assistant, but he's not a franchise savior, and we couldn't risk losing our top choice to thumb-twiddling again, imo. think snyder's SA bound, anyway.

 

I must admit Ham's potential is more appealing for me. Snyder's value is more established and still has some question marks, like his inability to make the team good in postseason. It's definitely not easy with Gobert, but at the same time it's on the coach to find a system where a max player can be effective.
Mitchell also hasn't developed his game to the ceiling he was once projected (e.g. in the series with Denver).

So I'm all in with Ham and looking forward to it.
Now let's get Russ out of our payroll

 

Finally! A post on Ham!

We're having the same discussion in 2 different threads.

LOL.

 

i'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall during interviews when we essentially asked people how they planned to improve upon vogel's offense and whether they saw AD as a center or a pf.

 

The more I read up on Coach Ham and the authority he is going to have the more excited I get. He was actually hired as a coach and not a figure head. He is going to hold our veterans accountable and develop our young players. We got a good coach and front office is showing they do learn from their mistakes. Both big positives going forward. I want out veterans treated with the respect they have earned I just don't want their a$$ kissed to the detriment of the team.

 

Charles Barkley on Lakers’ hiring of Darvin Ham: If your coach is the same age as your players, your team is not gonna be any good