With a healthy LeGM and AD, Vogel is a good coach. Without them, he’s awful. That being said, with the collection of bad, one way players, and injuries, NO COACH on the planet could have done much with this team. If you think someone could, you are just fooling yourself.
I completely agree. There’s going to be a group of guys throwing a bunch of blame on Vogel right now who will happily take him back next season.
Agree with this. Last years team wasn’t great, like I’m not sure we win the title if healthy, but I do think they had a shot at the Finals. This years team is so much worse than last year, I can’t think of any coach that could get much more from this roster, maybe 5 more wins tops with a mastermind. What I do put blame on with Vogel last year is the roster was handled poorly, that’s on him too, if you’re the head coach act like it, the GM and star don’t get to promise starting roles. Dennis and Drummond come off the bench last season in more defined roles and we would have been better for sure. Schröder was wasted next to LeBron as all ball-handling guards are, which is why it’s still baffling LeBrok wanted Russ, LeBron will dominate the ball until the day he retires, it is what it is. Bottom like Frank has failed in key areas though, I can’t look past lineups he’s run, especially in what he called a playoff game. It’s a playoff game, so you play Avery Bradley 34 minutes? Especially seeing how we’ve looked better overall without him? You START Ariza vs Utah? Just bad.
Lebron and AD played 27 games together last year. We were top1 defense which was the only way we could remain competitive. That's on Vogel. I also dislike his rotations and offense schemes but I don't think that we will find better than him this offseason I'm pretty sure he will be canned though
Im fairly sure we'll end up with a worse coach (as long as Jeanie is the owner and Rambii are here... plus Rob) but the guy has to go. His lineups are beyond crazy.
Who is actually available though? I want Vogel gone too (even though he's probably the least to blame) but I'm honestly having a hard time figuring out who that guy should be? Is that guy Phil Handy? Feels like he's priming himself for the job....
I’ve been a supporter of Frank because the FO handed him the most ill fitting roster. But his lineups and rotations are maddening and indefensible.
agree with jsm in general on coaching hierarchy, etc. and with ox and jsm on people's short/selective lue memories. question about rotations: who would we rather play? which player, when you look down that bench, gives you a sense of a security that they're going to produce wins? lebron and AD are in suits. i have no idea what i'd do. stan johnson and reaves basically weren't in the league in august. trevor ariza died sometime in june i think. for whatever reason, vogel's security blanket is avery bradley, and that's who he goes to when he feels desperate. all coaches have these guys. carlisle had jjb in dallas (and his patience was eventually rewarded after LOTS of fan/internet smartguy whining about overusing him), for example. anyway, i think the reason vogel's still sort of randomly trying stuff is on the FO/injuries as much as it is on him. again, prior to this season, what you heard from pretty much everyone was that you understood your role with vogel. i find it hard to believe he intentionally scrapped a career-long formula for success (defense, role definition) for fun. because he wanted to be fired. though i do think he wants to be fired now. and he'll be better for it. when he takes over in detroit or something and makes them a top-5 defense and playoff team, the press won't be on him all the time about why he did or didn't make some sub in a game they lost because a guy hit a double-clutch three or something.
Yep, there's a reason we're going to finish with over 40 starting lineups and it's not because Frank wants to show off his Rain Man ability to get every conceivable lineup on the floor at least once. Nothing is working with this team and we're losing every night. We saw some good stuff during some of those losses with Stan, Gabriel, AR lineups but it still resulted in a loss. Another point to this: while I disagree with burying AR, he hasn't exactly been playing well the past 12-15 games. His shot is not there and they're coming at him on D. He has the biggest bullseye on him. He's probably spent. His stamina isn't up to NBA levels, few rookies are ready for that 82 game grind against bigger, stronger, faster grown men that they're battling nightly. There's another topic of debate whether not playing him is saving him (and his confidence) from himself or doing damage by not letting him try to work through it. Vogel clearly thinks it's the former. The front office is aware that Bradley is Frank's security blanket and he's going to lean on him too much at times. If they didn't want that, then they shouldn't have guaranteed his deal for the rest of the season.
agree jsm. i think a while back i thought we should consider resting reaves near the end if we were out of it (and we are). there are both physical and psychological reasons to do it. we've seen what we need to from him, and there's little left to learn. i'm hoping we have handy working hard with stan/reaves/gabriel over the summer so that they can all be reliable 20-25mpg role players for us next year. it will allow us to try for bigger hits with vet signings (as opposed to just collecting minimums there) at positions of need (center?) and just have fewer old folks trying to keep up on defense.
Lebron and AD haven't stepped up and publicly supported Frank all season. That's the most telling thing here IMO.He's toast.. end of story. Maybe he will bounce back with a team like Detroit as Abeer says, or maybe he'll be terrible somewhere else like in Orlando. IDK...I wish him good luck elsewhere, in the same fashion that I do with the players. We won a chip and he's in rare company as a NBA HC with that accomplishment.
yeah, i don't think anyone doesn't think he's gone in 2 weeks. though i will say that AD and lebron's endorsement on personnel changes should give everyone pause at this point. i don't know how to go forward with coaches given that fact, either. anyone without their approval won't get a real chance, but anyone with their approval is likely to be either a retread or an inexperienced former player they like.
I was never a big fan of him, even when we won the title, but this season the coaching has been beyond embarrassing. no question he should have been fired halfway through the season not that it would save the season, but at least we'd have made the playoffs
I agree Bron and AD have made some bad personal choices and IMO, we shouldn’t be giving Bron the choice to pick a coach at this late stage of his career.
If we are stuck with Westbrick next season and can’t significantly improve this roster, it won’t matter who the coach is.
it's a fair point. that and any russ trade isn't likely to bring back ideally-fitting parts, so the new coach is in for a bumpy ride no matter what. it's so going to be jared dudley or something like this. they'll point to willie green's success this year, but he was an assistant with gs for two years and then phx for two years before getting his shot.
he fits the mold: long-time role player in the league who was always popular with teammates. it's like THE path. though i'd argue that in recent years it's the video tech/scout type guys like spoelstra, nurse, vogel and taylor jenkins who have actually had the more tangible success than the former players. do we have any good advance scout types in the organization?
