Anthony Davis Discussion: Only Player On Both All NBA + All Def

And we won a title with a run against Houston, Portland, Denver and Miami. What's your point?

 

Mainly that Booker is overrated. He is a good offensive player, but he isn't athletic enough to be unstoppable and he is a poor defensive player. Prior to Chris Paul landing there, his record shows he has significant trouble being a first option that leads to any kind of success.

Only reason people are talking about Booker is because he was in the finals and I just mentioned that the run wasn't that great because of all the injuries.

 

I'm a Booker fan for a long time, even have his jersey. I think you're not being fair.
Suns sucked since they drafted him, Ayton has been inconsistent and they don't have anyone else relevant. Even this team has clearly overachieved and I believe due to CP3 impact on making others better.

Booker is 24 and answered when the team got better and needed him to step up. He has two challenges in his career that he answered positively, the 8-0 in the bubble that pushed the team forward in terms of development and this year where he didn't folded and actually took games in the playoffs. He averaged 27-5-5 who should be Kobe's career averages. Two +40 (50 and 60%FG) games in the Finals when the team was scrambling. 47 against us to close the series, 34 against Denver to close the series and 40 the next game to open the series against Floppers. I mean, these are key games in series and he just steps up.

He is the same age and for me better than Tatum, Mitchell, Murray or Brown. For me he is the best of his generation (24yo), would just put him under Luka and Jokic of the under 25 superstars. I don't think I'm forgetting anyone. Well Giannis is better too, but I wouldn't build around him.

Now, I do think he needs to develop his game, it's too much Kobe-shaped, I mean seeing him play is almost a deja-vu. But he doesn't have Kobe skill, nobody has, so he better complement his game. Today's superstars are a do it all type of players. LeBron, Luka, Giannis...

I wonder who from the group above (Tatum and so on) will step up and be a league leader. I think Luka is the only guy who can have a career similar to LeBron. Jokic is something completely new. The Tatums and Mitchells of this league will end up being Lillard/Harden type of stars most likely, their ceiling would probably be Durant for one or two of them



Also, with AD and trusting he remains healthy, our goal should be to target one of these guys when they are around 30, completely on their peak and title-hungry. Of course Luka is the main target and I'm sure we are not sleeping on that.
I think LeBron will play 4 more years so it matches more or less the timeline.

 

I get that, but it's easy to talk when we are not making decisions lol because we don't have any responsibility nor need to consider all other factors that matter in real life or when you are in a decision-making position.

We gave the keys to AD (and LeBron) and trusted him to build the future in LA. We won a chip and lost another plagued with injuries.

It wouldn't bode well to trade him for the next big thing when he have delivered.
What message does it send to Luka himself and other superstars?

It's like this scenario:
You have a girlfriend and start having an affair with other girl and after a few weeks decide to dump your girlfriend and start a relationship with the new one. How can this girl trust you will not do the same with another one? This relationship would have literally started with cheating lol

that's my point, you need to manage really well how you treat your stars so that they want to come and trust that you will give them all the tools and security for them to perform.
No superstar want to feel that they are not in charge and can be randomly traded to a random city. What would be of AD's career after signing a max and having to play in Dallas for a number of years?

 

i'm with svtzr here. booker is overrated. i think almost all of phx's success is due to paul, and i think you'll see them return to irrelevance once paul is done.

and tatum/mitchell/booker won't even be lillard/harden (and definitely not durant).

basically, by the time the latter guys were of a similar age, nobody could defend them with one guy--no matter who the guy was--and feel confident they'd beat you. the only one from the former group that might get there is tatum, because he has the physical tools (he'll have to become a better ballhandler and passer).

booker (and murray, for that matter) have both been able to lean on their skill despite limited athleticism because they have an mvp-caliber teammate who draws a TON of defensive interest, imo.

i've been more impressed by mitchell than booker, tbh, mostly because he can get into the paint much more easily and does most of the really heavy lifting in his offense (though conley definitely helped him there last year, too).

tl;dr: outside of luka, there's not really a young perimeter player who's carrying an offense.

 

Pretty much sums up my thinking. Luka, Jokic and Giannis have broken away from the pack. The rest of the younger guys all have issues of one kind or another.

And to be compared to Kobe, Booker is going to have to play defense.

 

Along with getting better at everything else like scoring, rebounding, passing, blocking, throwing daggers in pivotal games for 18 years, etc. 5 NBA championships, leading a generation of fans and basketball players across the globe, etc., etc., etc. He's almost there LOL.

 

I think you're extrapolating the Kobe comparisons lol
It's not legacy or skill or career. They are nothing alike and Booker always dismissed those comparisons.
It's just the type of plays, how they shoot, specially that midjumper. Booker spent some time with Kobe and growing up absorbed a lot from the Mamba, like the Mamba did with MJ. If you look a game of Booker, you have deja-vus of Kobe.

But it ends there and Booker will make his name.

@abeer3 nice conversation, good points. I think you're being a bit harsh on these kids. What were Harden and Lillard with 24? Mitchell and Murray shown flashes of elite level in the playoff matchup at the bubble. Tatum shown when Irving for injured in the POs and they went to ECF. Booker did it this year

Definitely CP3 was THE factor of this Suns run. But they still have CLEARLY overachieved. You're being harsh on Booker saying if CP3 were not there they would suck. Of course! If you put there Tatum, Mitchell, Harden or Lillard instead of Booker they would still suck. They are also being extremely well coached by one of the 2 most underrated coaches of the league: Monty (the other is McMillan).

Regarding their generation, their prime is in around 5 years, so they still have a lot to develop and learn while starting to shape their career and path to greatness

Oh and I'm also high on Mitchell, hope he develops well. I have him higher than Tatum, that I know it must be an arguable point. I never bought much into Tatum, he is a great player but don't know if he has "it", probably will be wrong about this one

 

tatum and mitchell have been leading playoff teams; booker...notsomuch.

prime is usually about 8 years in or around age 28, whichever is first, right?

anyway, lillard:



harden:



tatum:



mitchell:



booker:



murray:



basically supports my exact rankings--and i hadn't even looked at these prior, tbh.

booker and murray don't defend and aren't actually as great offensively as they seem.

btw, i ran out of attachments, but luka's numbers blow everyone here away, including the established star comparisons.

harden's numbers get obscene later, but i'd argue a lot of that was because he was shooting about half as many fts as most teams during those times...

 

Hence "by a wide margin"

 

social media is a cancer

 

Booker is good: very skilled but he just doesn't have enough elite athleticism or size to be that in that elite tier.

Giannis was great but that had to be one weakest title contests I've ever seen. Phoenix had no muscle to throw at Giannis and OTOH both Paul and Booker got their water turned off by Jrue Holiday over and over again. The main problem in that series is that when you had a guy who was strong with lateral quickness like Holiday, Booker didn't have that explosion to get around him or jump over him. Holiday is an elite defender but even he's not the same thing compared to guys with size like Lebron, Kobe, or Jimmy Butler types.

Now Luka is not an elite athlete either but the dude is huge: he's like Lebron a PF with a PG game

 

kobe was also a better athlete than people give him credit for. as his career went on, people focused on the fact that he wasn't an mj/lebron/westbrook type athlete, but uh...he was hella athletic.

anyway, AD > booker, by a wide margin.

 

Wait, I wasn't saying that AD is not a better player.
I'm saying pairing them and AD dominates the game and taking turns with Booker and at the end we have Booker closing

We don't need Luka or the best in NBA to continue to win. We have AD. We need a top10 player to pair with him and take over when AD doesn't deliver


On your analysis, good data. Funny that their PER is similar to Lillard and Harden at the same age. They may reach that level
Got curious with Luka stats

 

Some great points here.

Booker seems to get separation through contact, he bumps you and then uses his great body control to get a quality look. But defenders with length or athleticism to recover give him trouble. And if his shot isn't falling, he lacks other ways to score.

Like you said this was a weak season. So many injuries; Murray, AD, Mike Conley, Kawhi, Harden, Irving,J aylen Brown, Trae Young and the disappearance of Ben Simmons.

To me, Luka is an enigma. He shouldn't be able to do what he does, he just puts people in a box on his hip and just hits Larry Bird shots over you the whole time and if you double him, he just sees over everyone and makes the right pass. I know he is as crafty as Steve Nash and strong like an Ox with elite size - but it still shouldn't be possible.

 

luka's a savant. once-a-generation feel for the game. he's big, and he's more athletic than people think--he's got enough initial burst to get by even the best wing defenders, and he moves his feet pretty well defensively, too. it's like larry bird merged with jason kidd or something.

 

I have to agree with this. I don't like the whole athleticism arguments half the time. Does a guy have to be able to do 360 windmill dunks to attain the title of athletic? Nash was sh-itted on too his entire career for not being "athletic" but his career speaks for itself. He was also a tremendous soccer/futbol player. I'd call that athletic and his career emboldens that further.

Luka has deceptive athleticism. He's big and clunky but you're absolutely right, he gets by great wing defenders time and time again. I mean look at the Claps series, PG3/Kawhi. Let's not forget Kawhi shut down Giannis when he was with the raps in that playoff series so the guy can guard much bigger offensive players and Doncic gave him and the rest of the Claps fits.

I don't think he's the most athletic guy in the league either, that's not what I'm saying at all but to say he isn't athletic is downright wrong.

I like your assessment of Mitchell too and I think he gets overlooked quite a bit because he plays in Utah. Athletic freak who's game has gotten better every year. He also has command of the game and doesn't shy away from any challenges on the court, he has the "it factor" and the proverbial dog in him.

I won't go into all the other players you guys were discussing but I'll make this comparison real quick. Tatum doesn't have have same drive as Booker, the tenacity or the level of I'm gonna do everything I can to will us to victory. Athleticism and overall better shot doesn't always equate to a better player, drive and determination have more to do with a player defining himself as top 10 when it comes to elite level talent which I believe both guys are. Booker has that drive and meaness to his game, I don't see that in Tatum nearly as much but Tatum by and large is more gifted.

 

i'm not a tatum stan, but everything i've read says he works very hard. and i think the way he's stretched his range is at least somewhat of a testament to that. he also plays both ends of the floor, which is important to me.