Kyle Kuzma Discussion: Wizard

Discussion in 'NBA Discussion' started by therealdeal, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Slick2021

    Slick2021 - Lakers All Star -

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    So you can't really define it, other than he passes the eye test in your opinion. That's fine, we just have differing opinions on Kuzma. I've watched every game he's played since we drafted him, several times on many occasions too. NBA League Pass is the best thing ever! Some people view the same player in different ways, it happens.
     
  2. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    I love it when fans say, "I've watched every game," lol. My eyes roll.

    Anyway, I'll trust Lakers Film Room over everybody here who breaks down the footage and has an understanding of the game.

    Kuz has grown - I just hope he's grown enough where we can package him for a star...

    :Laugh:
     
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  3. wallangong

    wallangong - Lakers 6th Man -

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    Let’s backtrack. First you claim he’s overrated by fans, then you say in relation to his minutes. I didn’t realize fans controlled a players minutes? You also pointed out how Kuz had more to his game at first...on a team that lost 60 games. You then say he could do better on another team, though they wouldn’t win much. You’ve already made the point others have seen: he gave up on trying to be a star and sacrificed to be a solid role player on a good team. You said he’s not a good fit with Lebron and AD. Show some evidence then.

    Now, to your request to prove evidence despite showing any evidence yourself:

    Here’s a list of advanced metrics that Kuz improved that benefit the team:
    TRB%, AST%, BLK%, DWS, WS, OBPM, BPM, VORP

    Mind you, the team has missed their 2 best players for a combined 50 games or so. The team as a whole has performed worse since last year, so the entire premise of your question is flawed. We are all entitled to our opinions, yours just isn’t based on facts.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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  4. Slick2021

    Slick2021 - Lakers All Star -

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    Some facts can be used arbitrarily. You can point to a stat and say this guy improved some in an area, this doesn't mean that his improvement made his team any better. I said that Kuzma is overrated by some fans. I also said that I consider him overrated,based off of how many minutes he plays in relation to his production.

    Those are not the same things, I didn't imply otherwise. I said that Kuzma showed some flashes as a rookie and 2nd year player, if he hadn't, we wouldn't be talking about him. We have James and Davis now, of course he had to adjust his game, that goes without saying.

    My doubts are about his real value to this team. Without Davis. Lebron and Schroeder at times, Kuzma hasn't stepped his game up. He will have a game or two where he scores some, but he usually disappears late in games, and in key moments of games...without the excuse of having our better players to defer to.
    It goes without saying that AD and Lebron are the heart of this team, yes their absence is supposed to be felt. That doesn't just cover up for Kyle though.

    So yeah...I think he could put up numbers on another team. No...I don't think he would improve that team’s winning percentage much. Those statements aren't in conflict at all.

    We have moved on from a lot of good young talent...Randle, Ingraham,Clarkson, Ball, Russell, Zubac etc. Some of those kids have found some measure of success in other places. This shows that they didnt have to play for us in order to find success in their careers. We have won a Championship without then, this shows that we can have success without being married to certain players. Again those two statements are not at odds with each other.

    I liked Kuzma more on his rookie deal, now he becomes more attractive trade bait IMO. He is not trash, based off of our track record judging young talent, I'm sure some teams may value him in a trade. That said..I believe that he can be flipped in a package for a better player. Ultimately that can be beneficial for both the Lakers and Kuzma.
     
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  5. tada

    tada - Lakers All Star -

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    How does his inability to step up his game in absense of our stars hurt his value as a role player?
     
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  6. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

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    That is a good question.

    I'll just say this: he couldn't have disappeared at a more wrong time.

    I know all players have off nights, but after that display, we had to know that fans would criticize him.
     
  7. Slick2021

    Slick2021 - Lakers All Star -

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    Is his value as a role player irreplaceable? Vogel replaced him with Morris in the playoffs. Personally.. as a role player...I have more confidence in Caruso or Kcp stepping up in key moments than Kyle.
     
  8. karacha

    karacha Moderator Staff Member

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    I absolutely trust Kuzma and love him on the team when the team is healthy. He does the little things, plays defense, blocks shots and his (inconsistent) scoring is simply a bonus. But when you need him to step up as a scorer because we're depleted... that inconsistency will be amplified so to speak. It's like watching pre-Pau Lamar Odom on the Lakers; takes over one game, looks spectacular, then gets 5 points and 4 rebounds the next game and we lose etc. I still like Kuz, but I don't think he's anything else but a bench role-player and should not be counted on to win you games in this kind of situation. A role-player like Schroeder, for example, can be used as a consistent scorer more often. Some people can do that, some can't. Unfortunately, Dennis failed us in a different way. :(
     
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  9. lakerjones

    lakerjones Moderator Staff Member

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    Shall I go through every game this season and talk about the specific plays and moves Kuzma did to help the team win or at least compete in the game? And then you do the same for me with all of the plays which hurt the team? I don’t think either you or I care enough to do that. That’s pretty silly and it’s not going to happen.

    I see a great deal of improvement in Kuzma overall this year but specifically in his defense (including some highlight reel blocks) which his coach has pointed out after many games, in his setting up others in the offense by making passes instead of just trying to score on his own, his rebounding, and his fit on the team. He used to be simply a scorer, and while he was a versatile one that was a limited role. Now he is doing everything he is asked of and he has matured quite a bit as a teammate. Those are all things which make the team better and demonstrate his growth.

    Clearly Wallangong aren't the only ones who feel this way. Here are some articles detailing Kuzma's growth as a player this season.

    Kyle Kuzma is the most improved player on the Los Angeles Lakers
    https://lakeshowlife.com/2021/03/01/los-angeles-lakers-kyle-kuzma-improved/

    Kyle Kuzma’s defense, and 30 points, make a difference in Lakers win
    https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/story/2021-04-03/lakers-kyle-kuzma-defensive-improvement

    Kyle Kuzma shines in role with L.A. as rebounder, defensive stopper

    https://www.si.com/nba/lakers/news/la-lakers-kyle-kuzma-providing-rebounding-defense-for-nba-champs

    One of the biggest takeaways from these articles is Lebron's quote in Sports Illustrated on Kuzma's growth and how it helps the team:
    “Kyle has finally figured it out,” LeBron James said. “He’s figured out what he means to this team. He’s figured out what his role is, and he’s starring in his role. He’s offensive rebounding right now, his attention to detail and running the floor and he’s knocking down shots at a high level. We’re going to be even more dynamic with Kuzma being in the position that he’s in right now."

    There you go. Want to do the same for your opinion?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  10. Cookie

    Cookie The Dame of Doom Staff Member

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    I’ve been really hard on Kuzma over the last few years as I’m sure others on this board can attest to but not this year. The guy has grown a lot with his weak side blocks, passing skills, cutting and making the right reads. I think the frustration from fans comes from his inconsistency. For example the last 3 games he’s scored 4, 25 and 6 points. People will say that it’s great that a role player can even score 25 points and it is but the the other 2 games where he played more than 30 minutes in both are a downer considering all our injuries. I think fans would be happier if he focused on doing all the dirty work when his shot is not falling. Make cuts, get put backs, take charges etc. The guy is far from a scrub but if fans are still expecting a 3rd star, I think they are going to continue to be disappointed.
     
  11. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    right, but at this point whose fault is it for expecting him to be a third star. he didn't hold out for 20 million per. the lakers didn't adjust their offense to get him more shots more consistently. they paid him like a high quality role-player, and i think he's performed as such.

    maybe people see his clothes and hair and think that has to be reserved for stars or something?

    anyway, the guy who was billed (and billed himself, both verbally and by his price tag) as a third star of sorts was schroder. if anyone deserves some guff from fans, imo, it's him. and he is getting it now, but all year i feel like he's been more of a distraction than a plus: we did accommodate our offense and our rotations to suit his desires to start (when it's pretty clear we needed him to be play on the bench and get chemistry with trez). we did offer him a big contract. twice. he just didn't get vaccinated and got covid as we slipped out of the playoffs. and he wasn't exactly the model of consistency prior to that.

    anyway, it's the kuz thread, and i stand by the fact that a) he's a better player than he was last year, and b) he's worth his contract and more. thus, imo, he simply doesn't deserve the fan ire, even after a bad game (unless it's just for that bad game, which is fine). much like my annoyance about the AD talk wasn't focused on a single game but rather blown up into some summative argument on his value.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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  12. Cookie

    Cookie The Dame of Doom Staff Member

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    I agree Kuzma’s contract price doesn’t equate a 3rd stars pay. Kuz himself said he could be a 3rd star after Bron and AD got here, so there’s a little bit of blame that goes on him but that was last season and we won a championship. There seems to be a lot of “throwing the baby out with the bath water” going around lately here. This season has not gone how we wanted it to go and the frustration is showing in fans postings. Kuz is performing up to his pay grade IMO. I think you are dead on about Dennis and his price tag and expectations.



    Kuzma added, “Last year I didn’t shoot the ball well, and I still averaged almost 20 [points per game]. If I can shoot the ball well and keep developing the facets of my game defensively, I don’t see why I can’t [be that third star].”

    https://www.silverscreenandroll.com...hony-davis-team-usa-basketball-espn-interview
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  13. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    yeah, i suppose that's fair. but i think the contract demand (or lack thereof) maybe speaks louder to me. also, i never fell for it (kuz as third star). i've always thought he outperformed his natural abilities from day one.

    not to derail again, but i don't think THT is going to be a third star, either. he's a good young player who should be good enough to play as part of an 8-man rotation on a playoff team for a decade. that's actually awesome. it's hard to draft or get those guys in FA. but your 3rd star types are actually not all that common. most teams don't even have one, really. i'm fine with our team having 3rd star by committee (we have 3 or 4 guys who can get 25 on you if you don't pay enough attention to them on a given night), particularly when our two stars are two mvp-caliber guys. if our top two were worse, i'd worry more about a consistent third star.
     
  14. Cookie

    Cookie The Dame of Doom Staff Member

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    Now hands of my THT:LLLLLebronlaughing: but I’ll save that for the THT thread.
     
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  15. karacha

    karacha Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree there, we have some guys who do it as a committee, but it's really difficult when all your playmakers are out. I don't even know how AD managed to drop 36 when his best playmaker is Kentavious Caldwell-Pope.
     
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  16. Kawan

    Kawan - Rookie -

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    I had maybe too high of expectations for Kuzma. I expected him to be the 3rd star on this team. There are times when he shows so much potential, but too many times he dissapears. Reggie Miller says that all the time about his inconsistency. I would rather move on from him and KCP in the offseason. We need consistent 3 point shooter for Lebron and AD.
     
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  17. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    those guys are expensive. joe harris gets 20 million per. jj redick got 18 as recently as last year. duncan robinson is supposedly likely to get 15-20 million per. bertans got that, too.

    reggie miller is just not a great analyst, tbh.
     
  18. Kawan

    Kawan - Rookie -

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    So your saying Reggies is not right about Kuzma??
     
  19. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. wallangong

    wallangong - Lakers 6th Man -

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    Just last week, Reggie was still asking the question of whether or not Kuz could be the 3rd star. I would say he’s 100% wrong in regard to Kuzma and would also guess he doesn’t watch any Lakers games when he isn’t part of the broadcast.
     
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