Brandon Ingram Discussion: He Is Who We Thought He Could Be

McReal is out here still trying to make us Bealievers...



Seriously, nice write up tho fam!

BI is going to be a beast...we've all heard it before, but you can't teach length and even tho dude doesn't have that vertically, his stretch game is 'nother level s***. 7'3" wingspan...f*** me, you don't need to be fast to get by dudes if you can just stretch your way to the basket. And on jumpers...they say he can't shoot...just watch what happens. On defense, that s*** is going to be lethal once he develops a strong core and works on his slides. So his genetics alone (his body isn't even a finished product yet at 20 years of age) set him up to be a potential difference maker in this league (see KD, AD, Giannis, etc)

I don't like gaudy numbers on bad teams, but if you consider we were 7-16 last season when he was out of the lineup and that in all our non-1 possession losses last year (outside of 1 game) he was a net negative while in all our non-1 possession wins (outside of 3 games) he was a net positive...that type of correlation of his impact on team wins and losses was most prevalent out of anybody on our team.

Maybe if he suits up in those 16 losses we had, we're not looking at 35 wins and possibly a chance at the postseason.

I'm holding onto dude for dear life....imho he's going to be special. The only thing I'm down on him for is his defense. He should be much more of a factor on that end for us.

 

I apologize for the use of the terminology "circlejerk." I was merely trying to express the hivemind mentality our fanbase has in terms of overrating our young talent, and their predilection to lash out at those who disagree. It's one of my biggest frustrations with Laker fans, as it prevents us from being taken seriously by many others. I've quoted examples I've seen on other boards - like people saying Jordan Farmar is better than Rajon Rondo (2009), Jodie Meeks is better than Klay Thompson (2014), and Julius Randle is better than Draymond Green (this year). While these are by far the most egregious examples, it's something we have done for a long time. I would just hope people actually refute what I am saying rather than making this a discussion about me... as I see that is has devolved into that since my last post.

This argument about putting up stats on a bad team is being taken out of context. I am not saying that's the end all be all. As Laker fans, we should be familiar with people using statistics out of context to prove a point. I'm just trying to add context to the discussion. For instance, talking about how Ingram played as a slasher in Luke's offense. Talking about how his 39% from three was on VERY limited attempts for game, and using his freethrow shooting to show he has a long way to go to become a reliable threat from the outside.

When I've discussed arguments like this, most people are choosing to attack my "negativity" rather than actually engaging in the topic at hand. Other than @therealdeal and @shoe (who's points I will get to a little later), nobody has actually provided any meaningful information.

For example, those who believe Ingram has superstar potential, and can realize it in the near term, could have made multiple arguments. For example, I've argued that Ingram's role in the Laker offense isn't indicative of future success. If you wanted to show that Ingram was following a Paul George like trajectory, why not discuss how Frank Vogel used George in the offense and defensive schemes during the Pacers 2011-2012 season. It's becoming evident to me that folks here probably didn't watch Pacers much that year.

For example,







If you want to use stats to make a point, you can at least see here that Paul George at age 20 was used a lot like Ingram in the Pacer offense. This is the type of discussion I'm trying to get at.

If you want to argue he's a good slasher, you can use the following breakdown to show how he's talented at attacking closeouts. But, by the same token, you can't say that he's an elite 3 point shooter, when he's only doing so as a last resort...

SPOT UP TYPE PPP NBA PERCENTILE
No Dribble Jumper 0.80 12th
Dribble Jumper 1.23 83rd
To the Basket 1.26 74th
Overall 0.96 43rd

But again, I don't see many people trying to substantiate what they are saying. And I'm not interested at debating myself here...

So when you say things like,

I've shown that it is very possible to do so. But it requires a more in depth look at things than simply quoting the same 2nd year statline repeatedly, and then crying "NEGATIVITY" when faced with an opposing opinion.

And to your last point

I am going to put this in a bigger font, and in bold, because this is the 3rd time I'm repeating this on this thread.

I think Brandon Ingram is the best player out of our young core. I also think he has the potential to be an all star in 3-4 years.

On the flip side, I don't think he has the ability to become a primary option or a franchise player on a playoff team. I don't think he will be effective playing alongside LeBron if he continues down his current trajectory. But I fail to see how this makes my viewpoint, in your words "exceptionally negative."

 

We could actually talk about how Luke could use Brandon Ingram as an off ball cutter effectively with LeBron playing in the post.

Instead of Bogut here, imagine LeBron. And instead of Iguodala, place Ingram there



The 3 position (Iguodala) can slip the screen, like so:



Luke should be familiar with all of this, given he coached the Warriors.

Again, we could be talking about things like this, instead of talking about my negativity as a poster? ....

 

bi can play the dwade role in mia lol....kuzma is the bosh lol

 

I liked Ingram's improvement towards the end of the season, for sure. But you have to keep in mind two things.

1) We talk about "if he hadn't gotten injured." But you have to understand - his playstyle as an underweight slasher is leading to his injuries. We have no problem talking about how Houston is unlikely to be a great threat because Chris Paul is injury prone, but fail to recognize this with our own young players, who can't sustain the rigor of an 82 game season yet. And while Ingram is working hard on adding upper body mass this offseason, we all know with his small, lanky frame, it will be a long term process.

2) The 9-4 stretch is cherrypicking a small subset of games. Unless you can point out a strategic difference in the way the Lakers played after a certain stretch of games, it's not very helpful. I can make almost any player look good or bad doing thatOu. But, I'll go ahead and do a deep dive anyways...

Rk G Date Age Tm Opp GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc +/-
49 45 2018-01-28 20-148 LAL @ TOR L (-12) 1 34:31 4 14 .286 1 1 1.000 5 9 .556 2 4 6 4 2 1 1 3 14 10.1 -6
50 46 2018-01-31 20-151 LAL @ ORL L (-22) 1 34:44 5 12 .417 0 0 3 4 .750 0 5 5 5 0 0 2 2 13 8.4 -7
51 47 2018-02-02 20-153 LAL @ BRK W (+3) 1 36:48 5 14 .357 0 1 .000 6 8 .750 1 7 8 10 0 0 2 3 16 14.0 +1
52 48 2018-02-04 20-155 LAL @ OKC W (+4) 1 35:41 7 13 .538 1 3 .333 1 3 .333 0 5 5 5 0 2 3 3 16 11.1 +5
53 49 2018-02-06 20-157 LAL PHO W (+19) 1 33:45 9 12 .750 2 2 1.000 6 6 1.000 0 4 4 5 0 2 2 1 26 24.9 +20
54 50 2018-02-08 20-159 LAL OKC W (+25) 1 33:22 7 11 .636 3 4 .750 2 2 1.000 0 2 2 6 1 0 1 1 19 18.5 +19
55 51 2018-02-10 20-161 LAL @ DAL L (-7) 1 35:46 9 16 .563 4 5 .800 0 0 0 1 1 3 1 0 2 3 22 14.6 -6
56 52 2018-02-14 20-165 LAL @ NOP L (-22) 1 30:55 9 17 .529 0 1 .000 3 4 .750 1 1 2 5 1 0 5 5 21 10.8 -5
57 53 2018-02-15 20-166 LAL @ MIN L (-8) 1 33:44 6 14 .429 0 2 .000 5 7 .714 2 2 4 5 0 0 2 2 17 11.5 -22
58 54 2018-02-23 20-174 LAL DAL W (+22) 1 29:27 6 9 .667 1 1 1.000 2 2 1.000 1 8 9 3 2 3 3 4 15 15.8 +27
59 55 2018-02-24 20-175 LAL @ SAC W (+5) 1 38:20 5 12 .417 1 3 .333 2 2 1.000 2 5 7 8 0 1 1 2 13 14.0 +6
60 56 2018-02-26 20-177 LAL @ ATL W (+19) 1 28:41 10 16 .625 0 1 .000 1 2 .500 2 8 10 6 1 3 3 0 21 21.5 +19
61 57 2018-03-01 20-180 LAL @ MIA W (+18) 1 35:00 8 14 .571 1 3 .333 2 2 1.000 0 5 5 5 1 1 1 4 19 16.5 -10

I apologize for the formatting (I don't know how to paste basketball reference tables appropriately), but this is Ingram's last 13 games before the injury. Let's look at the final 13 you stated...

We had two excellent wins against OKC, but the rest were against lottery teams. Including ones like the Mavs, Chicago, Sacramento, Atlanta, and Phoenix - all of whom were openly tanking.

Our two wins against OKC: Westbrook and Roberson were both out. Ingram played pretty well in those two games, but his stats were in line with his season averages.

Considering the context, I don't find his statline that you mentioned impressive or unimpressive.

I'm more concerned about his ability to play against the slightly more challenging teams we are going to face in the playoffs. For instance, in our final game against Boston, Ingram struggled, scoring 7 points on 2-11 shooting from the field. Because of his one-dimensional skill set, a better team can easily sniff out and scout his tendencies, and adjust accordingly. And I'm not even going to discuss what will happen when guys like Gordon Hayward are on him.

 

I'm a biased Laker fan myself, I will admit it. After all, I'm writing an article showing why Kobe in my opinion is a better all time player than LeBron. But I'm not putting words in anyones mouths, just refuting the points others have brought up - which seems fair for a healthy discussion, no?

I don't view this as a "me vs. you guys" thing. We're all one community after all (I hope). But nobody is going to agree on everything, I just hope we can make disagreements about basketball rather than the fans themselves.

I brought up our overrating of young players simply because I'm trying to explain why I'm trying to put Ingram's abilities and potential in perspective. I don't hate the guy. I'm not salty we didn't trade him for Leonard (though obviously, I would have done the move), nor do I have a bone to pick with anyone here. I just don't like it when I'm called "negative" for saying someone in our young core won't become a franchise player, when they haven't really done much thusfar to prove it.

 

If LeBron who's smarter than all of us when it comes to the game sees something in our core and especially in Ingram than I'll take that opinion over anyone's. Love you guys! LB IS THE BEST BTW

 

The Lakers suck!

That is all.

I’m not even sure how we still have a franchise tbh

 

Mods do your job here

 

But I’m @TIME ’s other favorite poster!

 

Was this stretch during his playing PG for Lonzo?

 

“Special”