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Paul George Discussion

Discussion in 'NBA Discussion' started by therealdeal, Feb 23, 2017.

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  1. SFGOLDRUSHER

    SFGOLDRUSHER - Lakers Starter -

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    Punchers chance .. But i still got GSW. Nice breakdown doe. Must suck to be the rest of the contenders right now. Thats what i love about football.

    Your D plays lights out and you legit can win. Even if overall talent isnt close.
     
    SFGOLDRUSHER, Jul 24, 2017
    #4981
  2. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Carmelo is a ballhog and that's not really a debate. He brings some good things to the floor, but I don't see any way of trying to say he isn't. He's been a ballstopper his entire career in the NBA. Team USA also featured a different looking Boogie. I'll go with what I've seen in the NBA for a good decade.
     
    therealdeal, Jul 24, 2017
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  3. SFGOLDRUSHER

    SFGOLDRUSHER - Lakers Starter -

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    Melo should go to Spurs.
     
    SFGOLDRUSHER, Jul 24, 2017
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  4. JLaker17

    JLaker17 - Lakers Starter -

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    Melo and Westbrook? :Dfunny:
     
    JLaker17, Jul 24, 2017
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  5. svtzr

    svtzr - Lakers Starter -

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    Fair enough, out of curiosity though, over his NBA career, who has Melo played with (in their prime) where it's been more beneficial to have the offence run through them than Melo?

    Winning Percentages Without their All-Star Forward

    61% - Blake Griffin's Teammates (51-32)

    54% - Kevin Durant's Teammates (46-39)

    44% - Paul George's Teammates (37-47)

    32% - Anthony Davis Teammates (24-51)

    15% - Anthony's Teammates (9-51)

    Melo's best support was a beat up Chancey Billups and an over the hill Iverson. If he is playing with WB and PG, I can see him being really effective. Every situation where he has played with good support he has performed at a high level.
     
    svtzr, Jul 24, 2017
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  6. wcsoldier81

    wcsoldier81 - Lakers All Star -

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    Yeah ... Melo faces weaker competition with Team USA , I think a lot of people overlook this
     
    wcsoldier81, Jul 25, 2017
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  7. SFGOLDRUSHER

    SFGOLDRUSHER - Lakers Starter -

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    I knew someone had to say it cause youd figure people should factor that in lol...not everyone just to make "their" point.
     
    SFGOLDRUSHER, Jul 25, 2017
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  8. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    lol, it is if i take the other side and argue that his ballhoggyness is a result of his circumstance. the theory everyone (but me and svtzr) is advancing is that he'd play that way anywhere. i think you'll find he won't.

    defining someone as a ballhog implies internal causation.
     
    abeer3, Jul 25, 2017
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  9. svtzr

    svtzr - Lakers Starter -

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    That is well and true, but it doesn't explain why he plays in a different manner on team USA than in the NBA. If it was just a weaker competition thing, shouldn't he be ball hogging more since he can just score on the weaker competition even easier?

    That's why my point wasn't about the final product so much as the way he plays the right way when he has talent surrounding him. The one year he had a fit and healthy all star PG on his team (on the down trend of his career however) he made the WCF and was balling out averaging 27pts in the playoffs. Like abeer, I'd say with better talent surrounding him, he would play in a more beneficial way for his team.
     
    svtzr, Jul 25, 2017
    #4989
  10. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    And while that's true, much of that is his fault. If he hadn't forced his way to NY from Denver in that fashion, the Knicks don't gut half their team and they give him a competitive product. He would have had better teammates if he'd just let the process play out.

    He's also older than those guys at this stage in his career. Comparing him to the young wing class of the last few years is actually a disservice to Carmelo. He's already 33 years old and a leopard will have trouble changing his spots.

    I'm not out here saying the Thunder won't improve. I'm saying he's a ball stopper and Westbrook is a ball stopper. You put those two on the same team and George's usage % will absolutely decrease. The team may see success, but I don't know that it's arguable George will lose a lot of possessions; especially when you consider the general lack of coaching that goes on in OKC where the play is generally "give our best players the ball and let them figure it out". I think you're right in that Carmelo would improve the team, but this would be a fun-house version of what Kyrie is getting in Cleveland right now: what is the cost of success? Is George satisfied playing what is essentially third fiddle on a team likely to be a 2nd/3rd round exit (when coaching really matters)? I think it's a fair question even if you're right and Carmelo is more effective with better help.
     
    therealdeal, Jul 25, 2017
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  11. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    lol I mean your way is an assumption too is it not? I'd say there's more evidence in support of my argument (and I don't know what anyone else is arguing) that Carmelo on the Thunder means less possessions for George. Carmelo has a career usage percentage of 31.4% and has never had one less than 28%. In fact in his best seasons his usage rate increases. How many possessions are the Thunder going to have? I never said trading for Carmelo meant the Thunder would get worse, all I said was that George would be the 3rd fiddle and if I'm George, I'm not exactly excited about that.
     
    therealdeal, Jul 25, 2017
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  12. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    I just have zero idea how the Thunder swing a deal for him. They really have zero to offer that anyone wants. They would almost certainly have to move Adams or Kanter for contracts and while Adams has value, no one wants Kanter. But then again, we have seen CP3, Butler and PG-13 traded this offseason for garbage.

    Just my 2 cents, I think Melo could work with OKC. He'd have to play the 4 to get the most out of him, but I think it' got the potential to work. I too think Melo would move the ball more if he had players like PG-13 and Westbrook around him. Both of those guys would instantly vault to the 2 best players he's ever played with (not counting Team USA or all-star games).

    I'm not too worried about him ending up there though. For OKC to pull it off they'd have to find someone who is in love with Kanter. Have fun finding that team.
     
    Savory Griddles, Jul 25, 2017
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  13. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I forget who, but someone on ESPN710 said that Carmelo isn't exactly eager to waive his NTC to go to OKC. He's more interested in Houston. And then there's the issue of actually trading for him from OKC's perspective like you said. They're basically in the exact same boat as Houston: who is taking on the bad deal? Who is taking Kanter or Ryan Anderson?
     
    therealdeal, Jul 25, 2017
    #4993
  14. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    Between those two, I would take Ryan Anderson 10 out of 10 times. Obviously I don't want either at their prices, but if I have a gun to my head, I take Anderson.
     
    Savory Griddles, Jul 25, 2017
    #4994
  15. svtzr

    svtzr - Lakers Starter -

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    Kanter has some trade value in the league, he is a really good offensive player and his contract isn't awful (2 years left at 17/18 per) basically an expiring after one season. Currently his role as a 6th man fits him well and he is one of the better ones in the league. His defence is on par with Ryan Anderson but he is a better scorer. Plus ryan Anderson contract is 20 per for another 3 years.

    The issue with melo is he wants to leave NY and has a NTC so his value is dead in the water. And also players are getting traded for nothing as we've seen this summer. Kanter, pick plus filler gets it done if melo waives his NTC.
     
    svtzr, Jul 25, 2017
    #4995
  16. svtzr

    svtzr - Lakers Starter -

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    Whether it's his fault or not is irrelevant to the point isn't it? He has never played with good players in the NBA and the teams results with him show how bad the talent surrounding him has been.

    Regarding usage rate I agree to an extent, but as we saw in GSW it can be done. Klay's usage was 26%, Durants was 27% and Curry's was 30%. They all shared some possessions but it resulted in easier opportunities for all. In Cleveland, Love 26.5%, Kyrie 31%, Lebron 30%.

    It can be done and Melo's play for team USA shows he can be effective with a usage of 25% if the talent is around him. His NBA usage has been trending down since 2012 anyway, a few possessions less and he would be at 27% right around Klay/Durant. At 33, he isn't a first option anymore, but as a finisher and spot up shooter, baring bad injuries, he can be a terrific 3rd option for 3/4 years.

    I think as players age they smarten up, this is really Westbrook's only chance to challenge for a ring in OKC, he will make it work with George the best he can - and if he can be super successful with durant (perennial contender) I see no reason why George won't have success with him. Adding melo would mean they get even better and have a shot (regardless of how likely) at taking down GSW.
     
    svtzr, Jul 25, 2017
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  17. Khmrp

    Khmrp - Lakers Legend -

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    seems like its always someone elses fault when it comes to melo not winning, strange that a NYK team that was basically the same from a non playoffs to a 2nd rd playoff team with merely just old arse Billups at the time. Same thing in Den, similar core with Melo as the lead, perenial 1st rd exits. Enters Billups and they're WCF bound, its not a coincedence.
     
    Khmrp, Jul 25, 2017
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  18. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think it's irrelevant. He could have played with good players and he forced himself not to. I think that is an important distinction in Carmelo and his career.
    Is OKC Golden State? And is Carmelo going to be Durant? Durant posted his career low in usage last year playing with Golden State. Westbrook's usage last season was nearly 42%! With Durant, Westbrook was over 31%. It takes a certain player to put themselves after the team. If you're contending that Carmelo is that guy, I disagree. On his best teams in the NBA, Carmelo's usage actually increased. If you're contending that Carmelo will be content to play 3rd fiddle in OKC, that's completely unprecedented in Carmelo's long career. My contention has been since the beginning: is George going to be okay being the 3rd fiddle, because with Carmelo and Westbrook there's little chance that George is going to get the ball as much as he should.

    He can be, but I'm not willing to bet that he is going to be. At least not yet. Carmelo's usage is trending down, but he's been unhappy in NY with that trend. I'm not saying Carmelo isn't good or can't help you win games or anything, my only contention is that George will be the one relegated to 3rd fiddle. Do you disagree?
    If Westbrook didn't lighten up and play smarter with Durant, why would he with George? Or even worse, Carmelo?
     
    therealdeal, Jul 25, 2017
    #4998
  19. svtzr

    svtzr - Lakers Starter -

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    Sorry Khmrp, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not hehe. Melo has never had much of a supporting cast, and in the NBA you can't be successful on your own. Each time he had some help - he did well enough in the playoffs. 2009, if they had gotten past us, melo wins a ring.

    The Knicks went from 30-53 and 29-53 the two seasons before Melo arrived to making the playoffs the year he got there and topped out with a mid 50s season (with amare injured).

    In his first season at NY - they came across Boston in the first round with Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG and Shaq. Billups and Amare were injured for the series, NY lose 4-0.

    In his second season at NY - they play the heat in the first round with Lebron, Wade and Bosh out for revenge after losing to the mavs in the finals. No amare again - the infamous punching glass incident. NY loses 4-1.

    In his third season, they get to the second round and lose 4-2 to the Pacers (the year Indiana push the heat to 7 in the ECF). J.R. Smith is the second best player on the team.

    It's not like Chris Paul who has had talent around him but just can't get passed the second round.
     
    svtzr, Jul 25, 2017
    #4999
  20. Khmrp

    Khmrp - Lakers Legend -

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    I dont agree with you, I dont think Melo as winning player. Den is prime example, perenial 1st rd fodders and the exact same team with addition of Billups, they end up in WCF. I thought it was strange during our WCF matup with den the commentators stated Carl had to limit Melo to certain requirements before he could start focusing on shooting/scoring, those requirements seemed like common sense to do, rebounding, getting some asst here and there, so basically Carl had to tell Melo he needed to make "winning" plays 1st before he could get in chuck mode.
     
    Khmrp, Jul 25, 2017
    #5000
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