Luke growing with a young team? It could be epic when they reach their full potential together or it could be a disaster where everyone folds up and leaves in a few years. I'll take the gamble. As for Whiteside vs. The field: I just don't know that we'll be able to attract Horford. He's vastly more talented than most of the other big men, but he's also small for Center and not a rim protector. He's a solid pick-and-pop option and has potential to space the floor nicely for Randle inside. I'd take him in a millisecond, but would he want to join what will almost definitely be a rebuild? I don't know... Unless we can guarantee Horford another max player, I don't see why he'd take the shot on us.
Well, we wouldn't really be taking on cash as a contract like Swaggy or Lou would go out with Randle and Clarkson for salary matching purposes. So the cash would stay the same with Cousins instead of Swaggy/Clarkson/Randle AND two max slots. And Punk 101 said what the problem is. I'm not sure how you "can't follow" my line of thinking. Cousins is good, has been good since day one and will likely continue to be good. Whiteside is not only a knucklehead, but has a VERY real chance of disappearing next season after his first payday. I'd actually say its likely. You simplifying it down to them both being talented, knucklehead centers is intellectually dishonest. Whiteside being in a contract year is a HUGE concern that isn't in the Cousins equation. If it wasn't a huge concern, there wouldn't be rumors of the Heat (his own team) potentially letting him walk.
Well to make it work financially you'd need BOTH Nick Young and Lou Williams along with Julius Randle. Do you really think that's the best package the Kings could get for DeMarcus Cousins? They'd trade their "star" Center to a division rival for Lou Williams, Nick Young, and Julius Randle? Seems doubtful. We've known each other a long time, please don't call my intellect into question. That's uncalled for. Not following your logic is not necessarily an indictment of you. It's simply that I cannot follow your line of thinking. I'm not simplifying it to them both being talented knuckleheads at all. I'm saying I'd prefer not to give up assets for a player whose impact I'm not sure greatly exceeds a player that I can get for just cash. For all of Demarcus's numbers, what's his team doing? A couple days ago he put up 56/12 rebounds and his team still lost. He's been putting up empty numbers for a few years now. Didn't we all see what happened to Kevin Love when he went to an actually competitive team? Talent doesn't automatically translate to wins. That's what made Kobe's seasons dragging Smush and Mihm and Kwame to the playoffs so impressive. I'm not denying his talent, but if he's not got the heart/brain to win then why am I giving up other talented players to get him? I can get a player of comparable impact in Whiteside WITHOUT giving up talented players. Right now Whiteside provides a greater win share at a fraction of the usage rate. If you're trying to get Durant, then you don't really WANT Cousins. The two need the ball at all times to be successful. Whiteside doesn't need the ball to make an impact. Why would Durant leave OKC to go to the Lakers for Cousins? If he wants to share the ball with another high usage player, stay in OKC with Westbrook! Russell has proven to be a winner with or without Durant on board. What has Cousins done? Now, I'm not the biggest Whiteside fan in the world either. I can understand not wanting him this summer, he comes with his own problems. I do however want him a hell of a lot more than whatever king's ransom it would take to somehow get Cousins from a division rival (probably Russell AND Randle).
Saying someone is intellectually dishonest is not calling into question their intellect. It's basically saying a person knows something, but willfully chooses not to mention it or ignores it, and it is usually done in order to strengthen one's case. Obviously I know you're a really smart guy. I am sorry you took it as me calling you dumb or something. That was definitely not the intention. You painted the picture as option A and option B. But in those options you just talked about general knuckleheadedness and not the specific reason I repeatedly have said I do not want Whiteside (contract year overperformance). That is a big deal and it does not apply whatsoever to Cousins. But you kind of did. No where is the post that I quoted did you mention that Whiteside could fall off the face of a cliff. Cousins won't. Even in your retort in the second post, your main reasoning is, "I'm saying I'd prefer not to give up assets for a player whose impact I'm not sure greatly exceeds a player that I can get for just cash." Once again, you are totally correct based on this season's performance, but you are betting on a dude that was a nobody and magically appeared and became this crazy center. And with so much of his game based on hard work and hustle, it is worrisome. He isn't highly skilled and polished. Pay him, and his will to work will probably vanish. Look, if I knew Whiteside was going to be the same player for the next 4 years that he is now, I'd want him, no question. Everything you are saying would be 100% true. I just don't believe for a second he's going to be that guy. Cousins, while a knucklehead, will always put up 20 and 10.
Accusing me of intellectual dishonesty is more or less an attack on my character. I am not being intentionally obtuse about your argument, we're just disagreeing on something or I'm honestly not seeing your side. I always try to see the other side of arguments, so it was jarring to read that. But fair enough. I know you didn't mean it as an attack. Intent can be hard to work out in text. No harm done. Cousins won't? With his volatility he could literally fall of a cliff choking his private driver as they're traveling around Sacramento and San Francisco. The guy is a loose cannon. His attitude and his demeanor haven't changed at all since he got to the league and it was a problem when he was drafted. He's showing no signs of maturity and no signs of improvement on that end. So while he may be more talented than Whiteside, does it matter? We're giving up assets to go get a dimwit who continually fails to put his team in winning positions. In the end, if Whiteside falls off it's just him alone. He consumes very few possessions, we could honestly sit him or trade him. If Cousins continues to be a disruptive presence, he drags the team with him because he commands 30% usage rate as a player. His flashy numbers haven't done much to win games. If Whiteside takes his money and gets fat, that sucks. We'll have to bury him on the bench and eat that contract for a year or two before finally pushing him out the door as an expiring or something. We'd still have Randle, Clarkson, Russell, and hopefully a few more pieces. If Cousins comes here, feeds off this abysmal energy we've got these days, continues to make a fool of himself on the court while demanding the ball more and not producing wins... we've given up Randle and/or Russell to get him. Now we're sitting on a malcontent and we're in the same position Sacramento has been for the last few years. He's a talented guy, but the way you present it Cousins' baggage doesn't come with him somehow but Whiteside's does. The way I see it one risk involves some cash, but not much else. The other risk involves cash AND one or two young guys. What happens if we gamble on Cousins (which I still say is basically impossible since the Kings won't trade us Cousins) and then miss on all the other FAs? We've lost the youth, gained a potential problem, and gotten nothing out of it. We're the 2012 Kings.
I agree with most of that. But keep in mind, if Cousins goes crazy or doesn't work out, we can let him walk in one season. We would have lost Randle and Clarkson, but we'd have Russell and Ingram or Simmons. Keep in mind too, I only want to do this if we keep our pick and add another young stud to the mix. Obviously both are gambles, but the Cousins gamble could pay off big. I just feel Durant and DeRozen would be more willing to team up and join Cousins instead of just Durant joining Whiteside. We can fit Cousins, Derozen AND Durant because Cousins would slide into existing salary, thereby leaving us two max slots still available. Their baggage is different. Cousins comes in the form of being mercurial. Whiteside comes in the form of possibly being the dumbest person in the NBA (not an exaggeration) and having a very suspicious, insane leap in production right before his potential first payday. But....the Kings won't trade him. so we just spent an hour arguing over a non-issue.
The Kings ESPECIALLY won't trade him to us just across the state. My thing is I don't trust either really. I would prefer Al Horford as our big man acquisition, but I find it insanely doubtful that he'd join here. He's no rim protector, but I think he'd do a tremendous job of giving us a mixture of veteran leadership, versatility, and draw. People aren't lining up to play with Horford necessarily, but a borderline All-Star is a great start. Whiteside absolutely could get paid and fall asleep and in fact the rumors that Riley is willing to let him go make me think it's a decent possibility. The key would be finding a coach/system/team that would be capable of getting his head on straight. There's conflicting reports out there on Whiteside. Some claim he's a moron who will suck next season and some claim that his time away from the NBA kind of forced him to understand the game more to find a place in it. I don't know if he'll ever be a "smart" player, but I think he'll probably be a pretty effective one when his head is on straight.
"One team that I think is really at a crossroads talking to teams is the Atlanta Hawks," Wojnarowski said, adding that the Hawks have tried to gauge the value of Teague. "Al Horford is a free agent this summer. They're not sure he's going to stay, whether they're going to keep him. There's a chance this Atlanta team pushes the reset button here at some point."" That is why I think we may have a shot at Horford. It will be tough and I know there will be some real contenders trying to land him, but who knows.
Horford to me seems like a sneaky play if we call him. If we call him with all the legacy stuff, an open dialogue about leading a young team, BUT tell him that he's the key to one more key free agent... One more key free agent, a leadership position, a fresh new coach... I think there's a decent sell there. The problem would be us having to be honest and saying even with you and another guy, it might be a year or two before we're title contenders. Can he wait that long? Remember: if we get Horford and another max guy this summer, we get another max slot maybe next summer too. There's a legit shot we could rebuild quickly in the next 2-3 years. We just need the first domino to fall. Long shot, but a worthy one I'd say.
^^ Agreed. Horford is the guy to go after first, and hard. You get that piece, and I think some other great things could happen.
Especially if we keep that pick. Horford + Batum is a nice veteran tandem to supplement our kids. It allows us to start our three current kids and bring, along (Ingram or Jaylen Brown?) slowly. Keeping the pick though and trading it for another good veteran would be ideal. But I was trying to think of who we could realistically trade it for and I honestly couldn't think of anyone that would make sense .
Yeah barring some unforeseen circumstance, I just don't see any real trade partners. New things develop all the time (like maybe Blake Griffin is becoming more and more available?), but other than that who is a real trade target we could go after that fits? Looking through the list of available targets, I'm not coming up with much. The only name I keep circling back towards that under contract and could be available: Paul Milsap who I like a lot, but would be redundant on our team. Might be better to go hard after a couple veteran FAs, keep the pick, and make it work that way. If we ended up with Ingram or Brown and signed a Batum/Horford we're looking at: Russell/Clarkson Batum/Williams Ingram/A. Brown Randle/Nance Jr. Horford/Mahinmi/Black Young and will make mistakes, but could definitely win games with the right coach. Good spacing, lots of talent, great youth and athleticism. I could dig it.
I could get behind that squad. I would think about starting Batum at sf and bring Ingram off the bench, if only because Ingram needs to get stronger. That is a case where bringing a rookie off the bench makes sense when you have a solid veteran in front of him. That is an Eddie Jones/Kobe scenario. It's not a Randle/Nance scenario.
True, just playing with that. I really love the idea of someone like Clarkson off the bench. He's consistent, athletic, and capable. He'd make the perfect sixth man really. I don't mind him starting while Ingram adjusts though.
Calling it now. We're going to sneak into Barnes and Horford. If not, I think it'll be Derozen and Whiteside.
I'm not sure I want a wrong side of 30 Horford on this team....I woudl rather go with Barnes and Ezeli. Go for young talent that's on the rise so all these guys can grow together. The best part is, Barnes and Ezeli will have made two NBA finals trips by the time they join us....so they'll be young and experienced. Problem is, I don't see the W's letting Barnes go, especially with Iguodala on the wrong side of 30. They have to re-sign Barnes and they'll pay to do it.
Wow that'd be a hell of a haul this summer even if we don't keep the pick. I'd love rooting for that team with Luke Walton at the helm.
