Agreed. He was skilled, but didn’t have the Mojo to be the central focus of a Championship squad like the other greats had.
Imagine if Jokic had the Jordan/Bryant "hellbent on domination" mentality? It would be scary. I think what is really helping his team is really Murray's health and great play. They did not have him the past two seasons.
it's basically just been jokic and murray in the finals. their role guys used up all their 3s in the lakers series
Already 2 road games won out of 3 in the Finals, which is shaping up to be a really good series. A lot of us predicted DEN in 4 or 5 after Game 1, then MIA came back from 15 down in the 2nd Q on the road in DEN - where the Nugs hadn't lost for like 5 weeks? - and won...and I realized I had no clear idea how this series would go. Then I thought, if MIA wins Game 3 by 10 or more, they'll probably become the first 8 seed to win the O'Brien. Then DEN has two guys with triple-doubles, and looks unstoppable. On the road. Wow. I don't see MIA coming back now, but so far, I've been wrong a lot in this series. it's pretty exciting, considering the best team (us) isn't in it.
I love Jokic in todays game. If he played in a super physical era and played against any of the top tough centers and 3's where not as big a deal, I think he would still be very good but far from the dominant player he is in todays game. He is built perfectly for todays game.
i don't know, he's like vlade divac but better in basically every single way (and a non-smoker). vlade was pretty good in the old days.
I agree that he is way better than Vlade and I don't think he would ever be a scrub but he would not have the advantages that he does today. Honestly, Shaq and Wilt would physically destroy him, they would just beat him up. Not sure he could do to them, what he does in this era. No fouls would ever get called. He could not dominate the paint against those guys.
Jokic's touch in the paint ( non restricted aera) is elite . Would like to see the best career %tage of any player and see where Jokic is on that list
would be fun to have a list of players at their most dominant season and compare them all. Wonder where Kobe ends up when at the peak of his superpowers, Shaq's, Jordan's etc. Would have loved to have seen a prime Wilt/Kareem/Shaq/Dream type of matchup with a way to even things out across eras and rule changes. But I suppose that is what makes debating some of those things fun. I think it's that argument that actually hurts Lebron's overall standing. Was he ever the most dominant unstoppable scorer or defender? No. He was elite, but never the best. He has fans place other players above him that were better at their peak, and it minimizes the accomplishment of excellent longevity. Being the best 38 year old has nothing to do with being the GOAT IMHO. He can get props for all of his accomplishments, but it doesn't put him in the conversation for THE greatest player of all time for most fans. and that's not a diss because he's my favorite player
lol, lebron had a 5-year run as the largely undisputed best player in the game (2011-16). and if you're not a laker or warriors fan, that run might actually go from 2008-2018. he won 4 mvps in that period, and the other winners were derrick rose (not better), durant (highly debatable, even that year), curry (not better), westbrook (not better), and harden (not better). i actually agree with you on the "who cares what he does at 38?" front, though. it bothered me when he was chasing the scoring record while playing zero defense as our season went down the drain and everyone was so excited about it. at 28, he was a force of nature that pretty much guaranteed you a finals appearance. at 38, he's the second-best player on your team and is probably (finally) overpaid.
LeBron single-handedly won a playoffs serious with just one move (the fadeaway on the left against the Raptors). He was unstoppable. Yes, biggest argument for Lebron is longevity. So if you decide to take that of the equation, he does lose to other GOATs. But that's a choice you made. I'm kind of tired of this best ever talk to be honest. Each player depends on the context and the type of game, resources and practice in their era. Players today have film on everyone, see games any time they want, have stats on every shot they make, know how to attack each defender. You go back in time and people only saw their opponents when they reached the arena. Their knowledge of the opponents was based on their own previous matchups. They didn't go on film, have internet to find everything they want or need or trainers telling them that if they eat at 1pm instead of 2pm they have a bump on energy of 15%. They also depend on the team and coaches they got. You can be lucky to get a system where you thrive more or you can be unlucky. Kobe wasted so many years playing in a terrible team between the 2 title runs. He was in his peak and playing with Kwame or Smush Parker in the lineup. Then each person have different things they value more. For some is rings, others stats, other impact on the game, and so on. There's no objective way to look at it so it's a matter of opinion. It's impossible to compare for so many reasons and I could go on and on. We should just have a Hall of Goats and discuss better things
i've got nothing to say on the useless all-time greats debate except i'm still pretty sure 17 year old me would kick prime cousy's a**.
But was he ever the "best scorer"? The best defender? The best closer/clutch player? Most would say no. You can get the MVP by being the best combination of things, but doesn't mean you the best at what you did. Kobe was a better scorer and defender at his peak. Most would say more clutch. He won 1 MVP, so obviously there are other factors. But there is no way he was only the best player in the league for one year. So essentially awards cannot be held as an ultimate standard for who the greatest was.
mvp's just one measure (and not a great one given how it's decided). but i'm not sure i can get behind the arbitrary "best at one thing" as mattering a whole lot. jj redick might have been the league's best shooter for a couple years, but he was still not that great a basketball player. lebron was clearly regarded by many (probably most) as the league's best player for nearly a decade. who else has held that distinction? magic and bird barely even played that long! mj took a two-year break during his prime.
