Russell Westbrick Discussion: Clipper Gonna Clip

He certainly went through some long stretches missing the bunnies at the rim once he got there which was pretty much every game. He’s still got enough explosiveness to “get there” often and making an acceptable per cent of them again doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility for him IMO. It was pretty amazing the number of easy shots up there blown.

But everything else you list totally agree.

 

If you actually compare his career stat to last seasons you'll realize they're almost identical. (Ego included.) So your arguement about stats are invalid. You're the one who brought them up. So yes a change of staffing (coaches/players) can change things. It possibly can't either. I believe his state of mind will be different with a coach that he feel has his support unlike Vogel. Alot of you guys are living in the moment. Its just ONE "terrible" season. We'll just have to wait & see, if he's still on the team. Just my opinion. But "carry on."

 

Vogel the “players’ coach” who never benched him from the starting lineup even at the later months of the season when he knew he was going to be fired as the scapegoat? Because he wasn’t the miracle worker who could overcome everything that happened negatively to the team with the injuries and the roster he was left with. The staff didn’t have his back and “support” him because they wanted him to care on defense and not ignore his man off the ball? That is an unfair characterization of the coach. Seems to me. We’ll see if his prima donna butt is still here if Ham can get more cooperation from him but he was reportedly unhappy from day one when Vogel wanted whoever rebounded the ball to push up the floor.

 

What ticked me off about Russ last season was I was one of the people that supported him coming. We lacked energy and effort the season before. I thought Russ would bring energy and effort and elevate the other players. I was willing to endure the terrible decisions on offense and stat hunting for that energy. The problem was all the negatives came with him but very few of the positives. He had some explosive moments on offense but his hands seemed cast of stone and the ball slipped out numerous times on lay ups. His defense was atrocious. He was constantly backdoored, lost his man, turned and watched, even when he saw what was going on he didn't react. It had to have just been plain stubbornness. As LT stated maybe Ham will get more out of him but he had every chance anyone could be given last season. I don't want him back again but I don't want him gone bad enough to give up anymore assets to do it. At least Ham has the job security to bench him if he brings the same crap attitude. My preference is to leave him in street clothes and develop our young talent. Last season wasn't all on him as it was a disaster on many fronts but he sure didn't do anything to help out. Injuries and Lebron's lack of defense also played huge roles.

 

You bring up some really decent points. It's important to understand the player Westbrook is to understand the value he brings, so I'll try to answer some of these.

These are two parts of the same question to me.

Westbrook is good at finishing at the rim but not elite. He has never been a particularly consistent finisher at the rim and has never led the league in points per drive. But there is more ways to skin a cat and being effective at the rim doesn't just come from efficiency but from volume as well.

Westbrook is elite at driving and getting to the rim on volume. He has been in the top 7 of drivers to the rim for each of the last 8 seasons and led the league 3x over that time period. So you know what you're going to get: 17 to 20 drives to the rim per game from him. He takes over 1/3rd of shots within 0-3 ft (leads all guards who play 20+ minutes) and that's true for last season as well. So he may have lost his top line explosiveness, but he still gets to the rim at will and at a truly elite level.

When Russ is at his best he finishes above 50% on his drives. Last season he finished at 48.6% on them, if you look at the numbers, he did well to begin and end the season but had a terrible time finishing through the middle. I'm not sure what can be inferred about this, I do believe a lot of this was mostly mental.

As a note, in Houston he drove 20x a game at the rim (led the league) and attempted 8.5fg off his drives finishing at 56%. He was ELITE that season and it showed. He averaged 27 points a game as the second option on above average league efficiency. So our coaching staff very well can help his finishing, in Houston they did this by creating more space for both of their elite drivers that led to an elite offence. We also have two elite drivers.

Simply put, they won't. As stated above, Russ is at his best getting to the rim on volume, so you want him to take as few shots from 3 as possible. During his best offensive seasons, he takes less than 20% of his shots from 3. In Houston he only took 16% from three. Last season he took 22% from three or 3.4 shot attempts. This doesn't really harm us in any considerable way.

For the 3's he does take, our coaching staff can fine tune the shot selection further as Russ isn't bad from the corners.

Russ is actually an elite playmaker when you play a bit more up tempo and put the ball in his hands. B-ball Index grade him out at an A in the 99th percentile. His threat of driving and scoring open up the whole floor for his teammates and he has also improved tremendously with his court vision and as a passer over the years. He makes 2-3 incredible passes a game. But his low basketball IQ and extreme pace also means he makes some of the most infuriating passes ever.

Last season he had a lot of turnovers, then really focused on minimising his turnovers and in the midst of everything he had a real down year in his playmaking which is a shame for such a special playmaker and it hurt his game a lot. But both his PnR with AD boosted AD's numbers and Lebron had his best scoring year in a long time. So he has some value there.

Tough questions. Russ strikes me as a guy that is super emotional and in all likelihood got his feelings hurt last season and gave up on the defensive side. We know he has the tools, so it's really disappointing to see him be so abysmal on that side of the ball.

I don't agree that him getting rebounds is just for padding his stats. There is value in securing rebounds from the defensive side of things as well as getting into transition. Russ is probably the greatest rebounding guard in history - we shouldn't look to move away from one of his strengths.

The ego question is a matter of perspective I believe. I mean all stars have massive egos right? I think what you're trying to say is how can we get him to commit to doing the small things that lead to winning. I don't have an answer to that, or how he can be thicker skinned. Maybe Ham can bridge the gap with him?

I think you're probably right though, he is just who he is. And that to me is the real great shame in Russell Westbrook. At his best he is such a unique player - he is an incredible playmaker and rebounder, he is a terror in transition, slashes extremely well and has shown flashes of elite defence. But he never had the basketball IQ, coaching or self reflection to really put it all together. I think the closest he got was actually under D'Antoni.

 

i think the defense was the biggest issue for me last year and my primary concern if he sticks around. it was pathetic and tanked any chance the team had of being competitive.

in fairness, lebron also decided defense was beneath him, and even AD started the season looking like he no longer cared to defend at a high level.

in terms of putting russ in better spots to succeed offensively, what we do in FA could go a long way there. we didn't do him (or vogel) any favors with the team we fielded last year. can they improve upon it? can they find a way to play AD at center (a must if russ is going to be maximally effective) and not kill AD in the process? can they still rebound and defend in such a scenario?

 

The issue is we need two legit shooters next to him and some legit D that can mask some of his shortcomings. The low end price for someone who's at that level is $14m and if they can do both well, you're looking at $20m+. The only way we can get such players is by trading the player who needs those kind of players around him the most.

I think the most likely bandaid is giving Porter or Batum the mid level, which will greatly help because we're operating from such a deficit. But there's more in the mold of wings with size who can do a little of both. -- shoot it well enough to keep the D honest but not necessarily a shooter by trade. And that's just addressing one spot, Russ needs multiple of those guys.

 

If you follow this thread, it sums up his season.

Cranjis is a consultant for NBA And College Teams. He also does a lot of X's and O's work. He watches the games, breaks down film, etc.

So, while everybody is entitled to their option and may see different things happening on the court, I think we all (most of us) have a consensus on what Russ is now in his career.

If you have a different opinion or watched an entirely different WB, I don't know what to tell you but the evidence is clearly rly in front of us.

Fans advocating a different system and players will make Russ a different player with Ham? I would bet dollars to donuts those same people have no clue on what Ham does or what he might potentially bring in.

They wouldn't even know how to utilize WB if he is still on the team? What would I do? Possibly run a 5 out and place him in the dunker spot role on offense and use him as a ball screener and finisher. You have to have proper personnel but with that personnel you also have to have proper spacing (make sure no defender is within 10 feet), so WB can attack seams and driving lanes.

He's a flawed player, so I'm sure elite defenses will counter, but that's what I'm going to start with.

That's probably my last post on this topic until we find out what we're doing with him.

 

“That's probably my last post on this topic until we find out what we're doing with him.”

I don’t believe you. Now don’t get mad. We used to have fun. What happened to us?

 

“He's a flawed player, so I'm sure elite defenses will counter.”

:THT Heart Hands:

Good luck Darvin with the gift that keeps on giving if Rob can’t undo it without screwing us going forward.

 

The outfits alone are worth at least 40 mil a year.

The overall play was a disappointing
The inability to adapt his play to his team was shocking
The turnovers were absurd
The defense was horrendous
The refusal to own his poor play was pathetic

I’m ok moving on. LeGM’s worst move in his career so far. How could he have not known how it would be such a poor fit?

 

The Ghost in the Machine got you too.

 

Can we compete with Russ in our starting line up? The short answer is No. The long answer is Noooooooooooooooooo!!

 

Yes, I haven't been posting all that much, but there are some issues going on. Knowing others experience it means it's not just my connection haha

 

Thanks for the detailed response.
Regarding your opinion of him being “an elite” rebounder: He is able to grab so many boards because he completely leaves his man alone, unguarded, while camping in the paint. This is the definition of “padding your stats” and I’m not making it up. I watched him do it all season long.
We have footage of games lost because he completely brain farted, and let his man get wide open during the last play of the game.
His offense has declined and is somewhat excuseable for an aging player who is free falling off a cliff.
However, the complete inability to buy into any type of team concept on the defensive end, along with blaming his coach for his poor performances, are the reasons many of us see him as a cancer and somebody who shouldn’t ever be allowed to wear the Purple and Gold again.

 

Okay.
So, if you are all about the stats, please explain to me how they helped our team win games last season.
I guess you are also only worried about the offensive side of the ball.
Also, it was his DEFENSE and lack of accountability for anything regarding his play that has upset most of us.

 

Their record was 33-49. Who on the team had a great year besides lebron? Everyone else played up to par or below standards. RW being one of them. He needs to play better team ball. That can change. You make it seem like he was the only one effing up. Their record was 33-49!

 

yeah, the offseason is long and boring and leads to endless recirculation. the team had lots of problems, but in terms of construction (which has implications going forward), russ was at the heart of many of them. hence the vitriol.

if he's still here in august, i'll get on the train and hope for the best, but to suggest that he wasn't right in the middle of many things that went terribly is hard for me to accept.

 

Russ on the outside


Russ on the inside as Ham talks about "sacrifice," "facts over feelings," having Russ play off ball and focusing on defense.

 

Wasn't the calling card early last season also "sacrifice"... we all saw how that turned out.