I just cannot get on board this reasoning that just because experienced assistants fail as head coaches all the time, then experience doesn't matter and its ok to hire a rookie coach. I get that you're trying to feel better about the JJ hire, but this makes absolutely no rational sense.
If it was just coaching, that would be one thing. The outcomes are hard to control and there are many contributing factors outside of a coach's control. But there is all the rest. Medical staff. Player development. Writing on statues...
Yes, I’d say for the most part only a handful of organizations are well run. Just looking at the chart, we see the winning percentages of the teams who have made the most coaching changes. It’s anctually worse than I might have guessed with notable outliers in the Warriors, Bucks, and Sixers, the latter two I’d argue cut a coach too quickly. If I’m reading that chart correctly we are lumped in with the Pistons, Cavs, Magic, Wizards, Knicks, Pistons, Nets. Even with recent success and factoring in the date of the article, thats not great company for teams with either equal or worse coaching changes. Yes more goes into than the coach but no one (not specifically you, fans in general) cared about the other things going on when judging Vogel or Ham so I’m not really inclined to give the front office a benefit of the doubt that isn’t given to the head coach. Especially when the front office has most of the control of the players the coach has to work with.
the injuries in '21 were vogel's fault? dismantling a championship roster that offseason to bring in westbrick and a bunch of old shooters who couldn't defend was vogel's fault? huh? PG played 6 games for the pacers in 2015 and the next season, they still managed to make the playoffs and took the raptors to 7 games with PG, george hill, and a washed up monta ellis leading the way. how does that consistute "sucking"? 2017 magic had been gutted by a GM on his way out. vogel was given a s*** roster and scapegoated for it (sounds familiar) suns core consists of 3 ball dominant scorers who don't defend well. why even hire a defensive coach like vogel to begin with? how would any coach have success with such a flawed roster? vogel had his flaws offensively, but to say that the FO should've hired a failed coach in kidd over him is laughable and is easily one of your worst takes here i can recall (which is really saying something)
Meh..you continue with with making excuses for Frank, but you overlook Kidd, having injury issues of his own. Vogel was an assistant for 8 years, and then he had a great, 3 year run in Indiana. Since then, he has been a very mediocre HC. He was blessed to be a part of the Championship team, and that's the high mark of his career. We could have won that chip with Kidd as the HC. Kidd went from player to the bench, and won a playoffs series in the following season. The 1st Rookie HC to win a 7 game series on the road in NBA history. He wanted more power in Brooklyn and got traded for draft picks. That wasn't flaming out. He lead the Bucks to the playoffs, in his first season there too, becoming the 1st HC in NBA history, to take two franchises to the playoffs, in his first two seasons on the bench. Jabari Parker getting injured, tanked his Milwaukee run, however he is credited with opening up, a young Giannis's game,and setting the stage for him to blossom into the superstar he is today. His resume wasn't failed at all IMO. Vogel had been mediocre for the previous 4 seasons. We should have hired Kidd. Bah..I don't remember what takes, that you supposedly had, that were soo spot on myself. Denver was unstoppable, is the last one that I can think of, but feel free to refresh my memory on this subject. I have a little free time at the moment.
that nets team was full of vets like joe johnson, pierce, and deron williams. you really think the difference in that series was a rookie HC who was rumored to be on his way out midseason when the team was struggling? that's great and all, but the bucks never made it out of the first round with kidd as their HC and immediately became title contenders once budenholzer took over. you can credit kidd for developing giannis and making the bucks a playoff team, but it was obvious he was not the coach who was going to lead them to a title so what exactly makes you think that kidd would've been the guy to lead the 2020 lakers to a title? vogel was the perfect hire for that roster. they were 22-6 before the injuries the next season. it was once the roster got blown up that things went south, but apparently that makes vogel a "mediocre" HC
That man coached for 1 year in Brooklyn. With a declining KG and Pierce, who he played with. Those dudes were done as elite players. Vogel didn't win s*** in his first year on the bench either, after 8 years as an assistant. You are just making noise. If it's only about the players, than stop yapping about Vogel. I already posted that the guy made history as a HC, in his first two seasons. The injuries situation in Milwaukee happened, how was that Kidd's fault? Vogel wasn't perfect at all, how? What about Frank, made him the only one that could have coached that team? You are quick to run to injuries as a defense for Vogel, but Kidd had the same problem in Milwaukee. Hell friggin yeah..Jason Kidd could have won a chip with Lebron and AD. If he had been hired, we'd probably have two now.
C Who wins without stars? Mike Malone is awesome without Jokic and Murray? Vogel without Lebron and AD? Kerr without Steph and Klay, and KD? WTF are you even talking about man?
i didn't even mention KG. pierce was still averaging over 10 PPG and they also had joe johnson, lopez, deron williams, and andray blatche also in double digit points. again, a rookie HC was not the difference maker in that team winning a 7 game series in the playoffs when they had all those guys who had been there before what injury situation are you talking about? you really think f***ing jabari parker was the difference between the kidd-coached bucks not going further in the playoffs? lmao. for what its worth, he played in every game of their first round series against boston in 2018 and they still lost. budenholzer took over the next season with virtually the same roster (with lopez instead of parker) and led them to the ECF where did i say it was only about the players? coaching matters, as you can see from how the bucks improved after kidd was fired and how the lakers did worse this season despite a health lebron/AD compared to when vogel was HC they would have won another title with kidd as HC? which season would that have been? maybe if kidd had suited up himself and played like it was 2002, because there's no coach who could have overcome the injuries in 2021 and flawed roster in 2022. and he certainly wouldn't have been the difference maker in beating denver, despite how awful ham was
I can imagine Slick twisting into a pretzel with contradictory takes on coaches: Vogel wasn’t any good. He just had Lebron and AD. Ham wasn’t the problem despite losing trust from Lebron and AD. Kidd is a good coach and we’d probably have two titles. Don’t care if he failed miserably in 2 previous stints. You need 2 superstars, just like Vogel who won a title with Lebron and AD. But remember, Vogel sucks and Kidd, who failed worse before being carried by Luka and Kyrie, is better. Keep it coming my guy.
Because you still don't know wtf you are talking about Walgong. How in the hell, was Brooklyn was some kind of failure? Explain that... Brook Lopez played in 17 games that season. Didn't play in the playoffs at all. They had Johnson, Williams and Pierce..whoopee..that was some kind of killer squad? FOH Indiana had the best record in the East that season. Toronto had the best record in their division. Miami was the two time defending champion. Who repeated. So again..how did Kidd fail in Brooklyn? They beat Toronto and lost to Miami. That's some complete utter nonsense. Milwaukee- so Jabari Parker was irrelevant? That dude avg 20pts/6 rebs a game in 50 games , and then tore an ACL. Khris Middleton played in 29 games that season. He did play in the playoffs avg 14 pts, 2nd to Giannis on that team. Their next best player was friggin Tony Snell! Do anyone remember Snell being some kind of great player? What were these great expectations, with that roster? Seriously..some more BS. Where was this great failure? Failed miserably at both places, is some total BS..you can't back that up with a single damn fact. Explain it to me again, who in the hell, expected either team, injuries or not to be a contender? Lebron and Wade knocked off Vogel 3 straight times in the playoffs. Frank gets some leeway for that, but Kidd didn't in Brooklyn? Yeah..I think he might have gotten into Chokeolo's ear. He was a HOF PG..perhaps he could have been the D'Angelo whisperer we needed. Maybe not, D'Angelo might just be a choker. You guys haven't produced anything, but some white noise. I will continue to swat that BS back at you, because neither of you know WTF you are talking about.
Kidd wasn't the HC in the 2018 playoffs, so what exactly is your point? Budenholzer had full seasons from Giannis, Middleton, Lopez and Bledsoe too. I guess that's supposed to be irrelevant? Kidd didn't coach Lopez in Milwaukee.
and they still would've lost in 2018 even with kidd as their HC. hell, they may not have even made the playoffs. he was fired for a reason, and it's because the bucks were clearly a better team than their 23-22 record at the time indicated. for what its worth, the interim was joe prunty and the bucks went 21-16 under him the rest of the way. quite the testament to kidd eh? if only the bucks had jabari parker in 2017. they could've given the cavs a run for their money in the ECF. kinda like vogel's pacers teams did in 2014 and 15. i find it hilarious that you use injuries as an excuse for why kidd's bucks teams didn't go further in the playoffs, but conveniently choose to ignore the injuries to lebron and AD in 2021, the latter which cost the lakers in their series against the suns. but i guess vogel was just supposed to coach that team to another title despite injuries to his two superstars? you can keep on making up excuse after excuse for why you think jason f***ing kidd is a better coach than the guy who coached this team to a title, but it won't change the fact that its nothing more than a ridiculously laughable and false take
You still haven't made some big point, supporting your narrative. He had the players he had, and considering that, how was Milwaukee to be considered this total failure? He got fired in the next season, but that doesn't dismiss what happened with Parker. He was the 2nd pick in his draft, coming back, two seasons from an ACL tear as a rookie. He was showing why he had been the 2nd pick, during that season, but he tore his ACL again. Talent matters. Vogel was mediocre in his previous 4 seasons as HC, and had been fired twice. He was our 3rd choice, and the same Jason Kidd, was installed as the lead assistant. Don't run this crap, about Vogel being some clearly superior candidate. Our FO didn’t think so, that's why he couldn't chose his own staff Kidd won a chip, in the bubble too didn’t he? He's been the superior coach since he took the Dallas gig. Frank lost two locker rooms without Jason Kidd on his staff. Perhaps Kidd was the glue in Orlando. We just should have hired Jason Kidd, and made Vogel the assistant. They might still be together. Frank is a mediocre HC, a good assistant probably.
lol the "shoulda hired kidd" turn is wild here. and then just digging in further with each post. quoth the ox: no.
