Discussion in 'Lakers Discussion' started by DOAKLEY8, Feb 21, 2017.
Oh cool then we're in agreement.
That is a fact, but you are assigning your own meaning. Kawhi has been talked about to death. He gave us strong indicators he was coming and then slithered to the Clips behind closed doors. That does not mean the FO "can't close".
Lue was our 1st choice on our terms. He refused those terms and we went with Vogel. Not sure how that equals the FO can't close since Lue is still without a job.
And really AD was our first priority above everyone, and the FO closed that deal, so there's that.
We did not go nuclear for 2 role players. We went nuclear for Kawhi. He snaked us, then we recovered on the fly remarkably well. The roster is not perfect but it is well balanced. We are not forcing LeBron to play more with the ball in his hands. Where in the world did you get that idea that we are forcing him? It's what he does, has always done, and will continue to do. We are also not forcing AD to play the 5. We are good at the five. Better than we've been since Bynum + Pau.
I think we could have maybe flipped Wagner and Jones for Embiid. The fact that we didn't speaks volumes of Rob's ability to close a deal. Why did we waste those assets when we could have used them to land Embiid, or maybe if Embiid would have taken Bonga as well, we flip Wagner and Jones for Karl Anthony Towns? I think we should have done that!
@therealdeal I don't know what changed bro. I've said Rob could've done better and I personally want impressed with our contingency. #NoFinesse
I also said Magic wasn't the answer at Prez (although he didn't get his pick of GM or coach) and that him quitting on us was actually a blessing since he gave us 3 months to find a legit candidate.
I was only showing animosity to those that laid their primary rebuttal to my critiques as me having some agenda since I'm a Magic guy. Nah.. Magic could have still been here and after the season we had, I would have asked for the FO to reevaluate their current configuration.
@fabfourlakers seems to get what I've been saying and I still really haven't changed my position on it. I said from the jump... Give this FO a chance and let's see how the summer goes for their vision to be realized. 2 years of cap shaving and our primary get was Green and Boog. Here's a thought, they was both 18m, meaning we could have had roughly 16m more to use our cap in other ways (Or take back assets in a dump with the dumped player still having a key role in our rotation.
@TIME please see above in that our primary goal wasn't realized so they had other ways to get back assets and still field a title team.
@Savory Griddles Moe could have seen some run in playing a stretch 5 to allow AD to rim run. Bonga/JJ could have played some 3 behind Bron....or did you forget dude pulled his groin when his usage went up.
Let's also not forget that Jules/Zu were let go without any assets in return for that 2nd max slot.
so is theory now that a good gm couldve kept bonga/moe till Kawahi made his decision?
Just for some perspective, I think part of the reason people think you have the pro-Magic/anti-Pelinka bias is because of comments like this. Not because in itself this has anything to do with Magic or Pelinka, but I think a lot of us just so strongly disagree with your assessment here from a basketball perspective that bias seems a more likely explanation for your rationale then you simply being this off in your evaluation.
I acknowledge that this likely is your genuine opinion and it’s not actually influenced by your thoughts on Magic/Pelinka, I just disagree so strongly to the point where that’s the first thought my mind goes to.
I don’t get your love for the Wagner/Bonga/Jones trio whatsoever. You’ve been harping on this for a while and referring to them as assets that we should have kept. But you’re seriously overstating their value as assets. They are not good enough to play for us this year. They would simply be taking up roster spots that have since gone to players more ready to contribute. Yeah we had to pay to dump their salaries. That means that’s what their value was. I’m sure we surveyed the league and there was nobody who was going to give up assets for them when they knew we needed to dump salary.
And we had to dump salary. Taking a chance at Kawhi was necessary. We would be so badly admonished if we decided we’d rather bank on the potential of Wagner and Bonga so absorbed AD into our cap room forgoing any chance at Kawhi.
Even not getting Kawhi, it still doesn’t make sense to say the choices were “either keep more of our assets and absorb AD into space, or go nuclear and go for a third max”, and then considering our moves a failure because we went for the second option and ended up having to settle for roleplayers...
Your first scenario still would have had us settling for role players! But instead we’d basically be keeping Wagner/Bonga/Jones over one of the role players. And again, all the role players we used cap on are going to contribute more than those young guys this year. And had we kept those young guys, based on our situation they wouldn’t get much playing time at all. And so they wouldn’t develop enough or get enough exposure to the point where they may become a more valuable asset in the future.
And no offense, but I literally laughed out loud when I read your comment about our center situation. We’re forcing AD to play a position he doesn’t want (center) because we picked up two extremely solid centers? JaVale player 77 games last year. Boogie is completely healthy at this point. Most importantly, AD himself confirmed that he basically handpicked and signed off on all our signings. In fact, I think that was brought up in the press conference in direct relation to AD expressing his preference for PF and wanting other big guys alongside him to bang in the paint. AD wanted Boogie and Javale. We’re not forcing AD to play center, we picked up two of the best centers in free agency.
i'd join, but the rout is on.
just an excercise in hindsigh....would/could rob have been able to keep say hart or ingram knowing what we know now with kawahi situation?
"Magic is like a brother to me"
I agree with you that there were other ways to pivot once Kawhi went bye. I've read all your extensive posts on what could have been done. Your ideas on gaining a 2nd round pick or two, and then signing guys like Wes Matthews was certainly one possible route. Of course, we can't be sure those options you outlined were actually a viable option on the table in the time crunch once Kawhi made his decision. Above you were questioning McGee's health factor, but Matthews is an even bigger question mark, and older with even more wear on his tread. I'm actually stoked that we ended up with such a top to bottom solid roster and everyone locked into a two year window.
A few months ago you were calling out most here for a pervasive tone of negativity toward the FO, by labeling the entire forum as LakersBawl. Now, you seem to be the one bawling the most about the FO. What changed?
That’s a good question.
If hypothetically the Pelicans offered a trade package that had us keeping one of Zo/Ingram instead of Kuzma ... I think we still would have pushed to keep Kuzma instead. Not that we actually think he’s a better prospect, but keeping Zo or Ingram would have prevented us from getting a third max slot no matter what, and we always wanted to go for the homerun. And in hindsight that would have been a bad decision. In my opinion, Lonzo would be a perfect fit for our current roster and be more impactful than Kuzma.
I do think it’s a moot point though, because overall I don’t buy that Griffin would have ever accepted a package without both Lonzo and Ingram.
I could definitely see us modifying the trade to keep Hart as being a real possibility that we probably never pursued in the interest of clearing as much salary as possible.
He lost a bet, and “someone” is dictating the tone of his posts.
FWIW, I find all this upset reaction to everything Lakers, a total mind F. Count me as one person who hates it. I am a lifelong Magic supporter, and I continue to support him. However I recognize that some of his antics have been detrimental to the Lakers team. Would rather see him as a cheerleader than a FO guy, he could probably do Ballmer better than Ballmer does, but he does not outdo Phil Jackson as coaching material or Bob Myers as POBO material. If he could swing it, he might be a good owner, if he could figure out how to hire people and let them do his job. Truth it, he would be better on ESPN as a talking head.
But dang, I really just want to have fun rooting for this team. Maybe I'm not cut out to be a Lakers fan on the internet, the constant negativity just sucks. My philosophy is love them or hate them, and if you hate them, go be a Clippers fan.
Nothing...and that's the problem. Haha
Magic quit and I was expecting/hoping for an individual that was cap savvy to fill in. I'm not really admonishing Rob....I'm just questioning the perception that he's some CBA wiz kid. I'm sorry, there's plenty examples imo that reveal he ain't there just yet. And I want to be very clear here, I've never implied that Rob should get fired...I actually want a guy that is Mamba-certified to succeed....but that shouldn't take away from the fact that he's new to this and having a worthy running mate to overlook his moves works be in the best interest to all that are involved. Cause with a little tutelage and direction, Rob can be a killer GM in due time...but I just don't think he is one now.
@Helljumper you do realize we kicked Jules, TB and Zu to the curb to create that 2nd max slot as well. This isn't just about Moe/Bonga/JJ/2020 2nd.
And how about this novel idea: why not trade then for future assets instead of just trading/waiving them for nothing in return. We traded Nance/JC for that 2nd max cap space and Moe. Did we get a 2nd max guy for that space? Did we get a future 1st for Moe or at the very least a couple 2nds for him?
We traded Svi and a future 2nd for bupkus. We traded a 2nd for Bonga which we then traded for bupkus. Yeah, this s*** kinda adds up...and for what exactly?
Were we in play for Ky or Butler in a Kawhi contigency? Doesn't seem like it. So our 2year 2nd max cap space plan all led to a 33y/o Green and to Kcp who we had early bird rights to anyways.
Now folks believe we can actually trade for a 3rd star...and how exactly? Kcp has a no-trade clause...Green by himself can only bring back a 19.5m contract. If we add Kuz and AvBrad to a Green package, we still couldn't bring back a 25% max salary like Beal for example.
Now look at our immediate draft capital: no 2nds till 2023 and can't trade our 2020 till we know the Pels can't pick top 8 with our 2021 pick. So best case scenario, our immediate valued assets sans Bron/AD are Green, Kuz and either a 2020 1st or '21 non-lottery first.
So let's re"cap": Jules, Nance, JC, TB, Zu, Moe, Bonga, Svi, JJ, 2nds till 2023 were all moved for cap and nothing in future assets. Was that cap space truly realized? Was it all worth it for essentially Green? Laughable!
As for finding my concern for our center rotation laughable, again you do realize Boogie played 30 gamrsast year at a 25min clip... meanwhile McGee never was a starter till last year when he played at a 22 min clip. Before he came here, he avg 9 mins per for back2back title winning teams in the bay.
I find it laughable you feel our center rotation isnt a concern.
Even more, I find it gut-wrenchingly hilarious that it's Kuz and only Kuz that could potentially limit Bron/AD's minutes. Who else is there? Dudz? Kostas for 45 days? You think it'll be fun watching a 35 y/o handle the rock, increasing his usage rate in the regular season when it probably should be saved for May? Or did you forget that when he increased his usage last year, we experienced those grow-in pains.
Btw, if the 4th pick was used in salary aggregation for AD, we could have had a max slot and still spared Bi/Hart or Zo/Bonga/JJ in an AD trade. This narrative that Kuz was spared for salary purposes is just not true.
You sound miserable man, I feel bad for you. The glass IS half empty, the sky IS falling and everything sucks. I hope you got a significant other who helps you relieve the stress!
I shouldn't even honor this post, but study the CBA and realize we sacrificed assets and 2years rather inefficiently for your moment to enjoy your half full glass of wino.
I certainly will, but just know it could have been better.
I feel like Cousins is really being slept on a lot. Not just here, but in the media, on twitter, in general really. It’s true he needs to come along slowly, and McGee can’t be more than a 20 mpg guy, it’s why I wanted Williams to be kept on as a dirty work big for 10-15 mins. But man, if Cousins is even somewhat close to what he was a couple years ago and has really slimmed down and is motivated, we’re talking all-star caliber here. He’s a potential star that gives us a true big 3 if we play things right, and I feel like he’s kind of being talked about as a luxury, or a possible x-factor. I feel like Kuz is more of that sort of player, Cousins could be a beast for us if as usually does happen in year 2 back from a bad injury he starts to look closer to his old self.
How many times are you going to keep saying the same stuff over and over and over and not give a flippin "INCH" to the facts of the situation?
A. Rob knows the cap. And you've been told the Lakers have an actual "capologist" additionally in the front office hired out of that great Spurs FO to do exactly flipping that .... help Rob further with it.
B. Plan B was not to make YOU happy (while most of US are very, very happy with the roster assembled up against the clock with players the FO, Rob included, wanted and we're willing to wait for the money offered because they Wanted to be here. WE are EXCITED for the FACT we're on a short list to win a RING and have continuity to be able to do it next year AGAIN. After which we have more built in flexibility to keep some of them or not and reset for newly assessed needs and wants at THAT tme.
Good post Vash, although personally I'm ok with the center position at least for this year. If/when Boogie bolts next season I'll be more worried about it. But true, health is a concern with both of those guys.
I see where you are coming from in your critique here. I also wish that we had hired a new Pres of Basketball Operations and am a little worried that it's Pelinka and Rambii only. I would have liked to have added a third star here but it seems that WOJ was right all along in terms of Kawhi's desire to be a Clipper as much or more than a Laker. Obviously he wanted LA since he his breakout from the Spurs, but teaming up with another star of his choice was what he truly wanted rather than with Lebron.
I'm going to have to see how well Rob has done this season and does in the future before I critique him regarding putting together a championship squad. Personally, I love what he did this summer with Plan B in the wake of Kawhi's decision. I still think we have the best shot to win a championship but to me it all hinges on health. On paper I like our chances.
Cousins played in a league game this week and put up something like 43 /13. He's still got three more months to prep for the season.