Analytical Breakdown Of Wins For Next Season

Discussion in 'Lakers Discussion' started by pound4pound, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. pound4pound

    pound4pound - Lakers Starter -

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    4,836
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Predicting the Lakers 2015-16 Win Total
    Jamie Rico July 27, 2015 no comment

    The Lakers are entering the season filled with uncertainty. They have a completely revamped roster, 2 promising young prospects about to get their first taste of the NBA, and a 37 year old Kobe coming off of 3 straight seasons ending in injury.

    Nobody knows for sure how well this team will fare, but we might be able to look into the numbers and come up with a reasonable expectation for the 2015-16 Los Angeles Lakers. The main stat we focused on was win shares. Throughout the season each player accumulates win shares, which shows how many wins that player is directly responsible for. If you add the win shares from everyone on the team, you get about the same amount of wins the team has. This method takes offense and defense into account. According to the creator of the win shares stat, the margin of error for a team’s total is approximately 2.75.

    Here are our results


    keep reading here;

    http://lakerspulse.net/blog-post/predicting-the-lakers-2015-16-win-total/
     
  2. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    16,172
    Likes Received:
    31,056
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I like this. 34-37 is my projection. If we could add 1 more piece; say an Ariza type at the 3, I think we could finish at or above .500...
     
    Chillbongo likes this.
  3. Chillbongo

    Chillbongo - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Offline
    I don't know how the win shares stat is calculated, but I agree with this analysis. I think Clarkson's number will be closer to 4, and I am hoping for a Kobe that can give us 5 or 6.

    A lot of us penciled in 35-40 wins at best. We're also potentially still missing a a piece or 2 that hopefully bumps that number up.
     
    LaVarBallsDad likes this.
  4. pound4pound

    pound4pound - Lakers Starter -

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    4,836
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    36 wins in the West is like a 50 win season in the East
     
  5. bonk

    bonk - Rookie -

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2015
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    309
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    Quantitative Analyst
    Location:
    Greater DC
    Offline
    I don't like projecting stats (any stats) of a group that has not played together. It sells clicks I guess.

    There are too many variables in team sports to predict through individual stats a team outcome. Add in that we will have 3 guys in the rotation that haven't finished one NBA game. Competition isn't the same as the past "Win Shares" were accumulated etc....

    It's more of a guess than a mathematical analysis. What variable is used for chemistry? Which one for playing out of position?

    Some statistical information is relevant IMHO. There have been a 15 or so instances of teams improving 20 or more games in a season. Almost all of them added an all time great at that point. So if one of our youngsters is a Bird, Kareem, Melo, Robinson or Duncan we may get 20 more wins.

    A few teams on the list of improving more than 20 had significant players returning from injury and a one or two added several lesser players to complete a team. A significant coaching change was involved in a couple.

    Looking at that I'd still say 40 wins is a stretch and just about everything would have to go right. While I like the kids I don't see an all time great in that group. 32 to 35 would be a successful season I'd guess. We should know more in December about what we have.
     
    revgen likes this.
  6. KB24

    KB24 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,159
    Likes Received:
    8,286
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Certified Tax Advisor
    Location:
    Germany
    Offline
    Oh noez...the Lakers don't care about analytics...

    honestly, I predict around 30 wins...anything above 35 would be considered amazing in my book.
     
    Snake Eyes likes this.
  7. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    30,916
    Likes Received:
    75,716
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Your time is running out Ham
    Location:
    Laker Purgatory
    Offline
    we'll be a .500 team after starting off slow, or I'll go outside and walk around naked in my neighborhood.

    It's ok, my neighbors don't mind.

    [​IMG]
     
    karacha and LTLakerFan like this.
  8. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    16,172
    Likes Received:
    31,056
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    This is a good point. I'd wonder how many wins we'd get if we were in the East...
     
  9. thkthebest

    thkthebest Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,679
    Likes Received:
    2,300
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Win shares is not a good stat to predict future success. It is better than PER, but the problem with those stats is that they rely on box score stats. Both are also very poor when calculating a player's contribution toward defense. I know this wasn't meant to be used as a "be-all, end-all" type of thing, but it should still be noted.

    Another problem is the way they calculated the win totals. I don't think they adjusted the win shares for minutes played. Did they? There is a stat called WS/48. That would be a better stat to use by adjusting it for minutes played, which they would need to predict based on Byron's comments.

    I also don't like the lack of consistency within their own method. You can't say that you used a certain method for calculating this prediction and then for Kobe, just make excuses and be like, "Oh, well, he did this and this in the past so we'll just give him this random number". Kobe's win shares took a huge dip after his achilles injury. If the writer is going to use stats, he should remain objective rather than making a number up specifically for Kobe.

    This is exactly what I think as well.
     
  10. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,015
    Likes Received:
    18,419
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    I used WS48 for mine. And I calculated minutes based on avg games and minted played.
     
    thkthebest likes this.
  11. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,015
    Likes Received:
    18,419
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    Since 2010-11, teams that won 25 or fewer games have added a mean of 8.7 wins in the next season.
    There are some complications.

    It includes teams that won 25 or fewer in a strike shortened season.
    So, if we use their win% and project their wins to an 82-game schedule, we get this:
    17 teams with a mean win total of 20.76.
    They followed up by winning a mean of 29.0 games.
    This includes 8 teams that had at least one of their two years in a strike-shortened season still.
    If we project those seasons out to 82 games, we get a mean of 29.94

    We also get a chart that looks like this:
    Only 1 team decreased (by 1 win).
    Two teams increased by 2 wins or fewer. (these first two categories are one SD below the mean)
    7 teams increased by from 3 to 9 wins. (mean)
    4 teams increased by from 10 to 16 wins. (mean)
    2 teams increased by 17 to 23 wins. (one SD above mean)
    1 team increased by more than 23 wins. (two SDs above mean)

    What did it take to improve?
    These 20+ increasers were Milwaukee (2014-15), Phoenix (2013-14), and Charlotte (2013-14).
    Milwaukee added: Bayless and Dudley.
    Phoenix added: Dionte Christmas (R), Archie Goodwin (R), and nothing much of note - Frye and Green?
    The Bobcats added: Justin Hamilton (R), James Southerland (R), and Cody Zeller (R), plus Al Jefferson.

    Based on this?
    In brief, then, we shouldn't be surprised if LA wins 3-9 more than last year or even 10-16 more; we should probably settle around 9 more. And it doesn't require adding HoF talent to win 20 games more than you did last season.
     
  12. lakerjones

    lakerjones Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    10,582
    Likes Received:
    31,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    La La land
    Offline
    I'm thinking about the same. My guess? I'd say 32 wins. Like KB24, if we get more than 35 it's a very, very pleasant surprise. As constructed we're kind of too young and too old at the same time with Kobe and the kids (Russell, Randle and Clarkson) as starters. The only guy in his prime is Hibbert in the starting lineup. That's not enough. We're going to struggle big time. Off the bench you've got Lou and Swaggy P in their primes. And they are sort of redundant player types. Scoring first 6th man types. They are one way guys. At least there's Bass to backup Randle, who is ready to go. But from there you just have a bunch of young guys trying to earn their keep in Black, Brown, Brown, Kelly . . .

    Don't get me wrong. I'm excited for the season for developing our young core. But let's not kid ourselves. This is the west and it's brutal. The competition is extreme and we are just so incredibly unproven at this point. I do not expect a ton of wins.
     
  13. Chillbongo

    Chillbongo - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Offline
    If russell is capable of playing starter minutes, randle and Clarkson somehow become starter-caliber players and Kobe and Hibbert are healthy and effective ( a LOT of iffs) can this team win 40? Or is there not enough talent on the swuad
     
  14. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    28,475
    Likes Received:
    62,061
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Depends on what we see out of Randle and Russell... I had hopes they were more NBA ready than they looked in SL, but if they come out and are competitive ROY type players (yes I know Randle isn't technically a rookie you know what I mean) then I think we're talking about a 38-42 win team maybe.

    Honestly I see these estimations as short though in general. 30 wins? That's hardly better than last season. I'd be extremely disappointed in a 30 win season. Even if every game Randle and Russell showed improvement, I'd be upset with only 30 wins out of a squad that has the reigning 6th man of the year, a two time All-Star, and any incarnation of Kobe Bryant.
     
  15. Chillbongo

    Chillbongo - Lakers 6th Man -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Offline
    I wholeheartedly agree real. I think the estimations are low but based on the last 3 years, I've learned to temper my expectations. I don't want to be let down again, and I feel like that's what Laker nation is doing here.

    I think the big question mark is Kobe. Can he play 60-65 games and stay around 20/5/5 with limited TO? I still think the Hibbert acquisition is huge, even if we aren't strong in defenders by position. Kobe will play better defense with an anchor like Hibbert solely based on the fact that he'll try to let his man beat him to only have Roy there waiting to wreak havoc. Randle is arguably a quick enough guy to play great help defense, though his defensive IQ was lacking in summer league.

    Clarkson as we've seen is definitely a force. He'll take usage away from Kobe, as will Russell. I think Randle needs to focus on being an elite defender, if he does that we might be in good shape. We have enough offense but as bonk was saying, these young guns value offense too much...he might not want to emphasize defense.
     
  16. RasAlgethi

    RasAlgethi Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    3,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Laker Land
    Offline
    40-42 wins. I love my team, I'll always veer on the optimistic side. You 30 win predictors are a bunch of:

    [​IMG]

    Have some faith in our young guys, root for our team, its ok to be positive. It's sports, don't have to be ultra realistic or cynical about everything.
     
  17. thkthebest

    thkthebest Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,679
    Likes Received:
    2,300
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I see where you're coming from, but 9 extra wins is already a lot. It doesn't happen very often, and when teams do win more than 10 extra games the next season, it's almost always because they added another star.

    While we did get Lou Will, we also lost Lin and Ellington. While we gained Hibbert, we lost Davis, Boozer, and Hill. Russell and Randle are great prospects, but rookies tend to struggle. I expect improvement, but I don't expect to double our wins.

    We'll see though. 40 wins would be insanely awesome.
     
    bonk likes this.
  18. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,015
    Likes Received:
    18,419
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Professor of Humanities
    Location:
    Orlando
    Offline
    No, 9 extra DOES happen a lot. In fact, it's absolutely typical over the past five years after a team sucks like we did. Check the $tat$ I posted.
     
  19. thkthebest

    thkthebest Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,679
    Likes Received:
    2,300
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Great stuff. The average is about 8-9 wins so it happens more frequently than I expected. My +9W expectation was right about average to what previous teams have done in the past.
     
    trodgers likes this.
  20. LaVarBallsDad

    LaVarBallsDad - Lakers Legend -

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    16,172
    Likes Received:
    31,056
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Hill was a net negative last year; he clogged up lanes, shot poorly from the perimeter, and his defense left a lot to be desired; just totally inexcusably awful at certain points last season. I'm so glad he's gone. I liked Boozer and thought he really found his rhythm with the bench unit, and I'll miss Ed Davis.

    That said, I'll take our 4 and 5 rotation this year as opposed to last year with Hibbert, Black, Kelly, Nance, and a hopefully signed Upshaw. Kelly was a disaster at the 3 last season. If he's playing the 4, he's actually productive. We'll have a full year of Black, too. We acquired him in December, but he'll be here from the start, get a full training camp in, and has proved he can at least play at the NBA level.

    Lin was inconsistent last year; although, I think he wasn't properly utilized by Scott. Ellington? I liked his game. A decent rotational player. Will Lou make up for Lin and Ellington's productivity? No. Nevertheless, if he can be more consistent than Lin and give us more productivity than Ellington, I think that helps.

    Jabari will also help and less the blow of Ellington. He also proved he belong. Played a year in the D-league and played 19 games with the Lakers last year. As I said with Black, we have two guys who got very valuable experience last year playing that will help with going into next season. I think they'll both surprise us this season.

    We still have needs and 9 wins is a lot especially in the West; it's that brutal. However, I think we can muster up at least 12-14 more wins.
     

Share This Page