ALL Black Lives Matter

I actually think most people in support of the BLM movement would agree with you that inner city violence amongst the black community is a big problem, even if that's not the core of the current message.

But the reason why your point of view is seen as so problematic by the pro-BLM side though is because how it's often used in the conversation. Responding to protests against police brutality on the black community with "but what about black-on-black violence?" comes across as a deflection.

Whether you intended it or not, the subtext of that line of thought shifts blame back to the black community. Yes, black-on-black violence in poor inner city communities is a problem. But that shouldn't be framed as "who is causing the most harm: the police or other blacks"? The point is, just like the issue with police, the poor inner city conditions that breed crime are an example of a larger systemic issue that has developed from a history of racial injustice.

We can argue whether or not the problem with police is being portrayed disproportionately, but I think there is clearly a problem; deaths aren't the only indicator of racial profiling. It's a problem that needs to be addressed, so why so eager to steer the conversation elsewhere? Do you really want to take the conversation into the nuances around inner city crime and the complex solutions they would require? Because this viewpoint usually comes across moreso like it's just trying to stop the conversation altogether: "Racist police aren't the problem, we don't need to reflect on that. The real threat facing black people is black people". It reeks of that "well they should just pull themselves up by their boot straps" mentality which I think totally misses the mark.

And to be clear, your point of view isn't uncommon. So again I'm not responding to you personally or trying to cast aspersions on how you intended these points to be taken. I'm speaking to why generally this point of view is disagreeable to the BLM movement, because of how it is often used in discourse.

 

I think what we have is a branding problem.

At worst, "black lives matter" triggers some to respond with "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter", missing the point. It also prompts thinking like yours, John, which is a totally fair point, questioning what about all the other black lives lost in black on black crime?

The distinction, i think (im not a black man, so please correct me, anyone), is that the foundation of BLM is being fed up with racism, inequality, and injustice, whereas black on black crime is a totally different issue. I'd argue that black on black crime is a long result of many generations and policies built on racism, but it's still apples to oranges with BLM.

When a black man says the three words; "black lives matter", what he means is really: "You have no idea the overt, covert, systemic, and generational racism I've dealt with my entire life. Doesn't matter if Im rich, poor, educated, or not, I deal with racist bulls*** all the time, especially from the police, and I have to bite my tongue and be a good obedient negro. When I see an unarmed black man murdered on video by the police, even if it only happened 9 times this year, I FEEL it. It coulda been me or my son or my brother. It's visceral. On top of that, many times the officers are acquitted or not held properly accountable. Please understand, we've had enough. Those mere 9 people are proof...validation, 'SEE...SEE... THIS is what we deal with. Please open your eyes! We understand that we have a lot of cleaning up to do in our own culture and communities, and we'll need help. But, first and foremost the blind eye most turn to the racist bulls*** we experience needs to be made very public. Racism is much worse than most realize. Nothing can change until that's made apparent."

There are other acronyms that may be better received, branding wise:
BDE: blacks demanding equality
RTE: racism still exists
but
BLM makes perfect sense too, if understood in the proper context.

 

The problem with police departments is systemic corruption. Bad cops are kept on the payroll because the union bosses receive more $$ for each officer that is still working, and the city politicians receive financial support and public endorsement from the union. Since cops can't be sued individually, citizens who are the victims of police brutality have to sue the city. Bad cops are relocated to poorer neighborhoods where the residents don't have the financial resources to sue. Pointing the finger at racism won't solve the problem. Point the finger at the police union and the city officials who are always protecting bad cops and covering their own a**.

 

Great and valid point!
There are so many layers to issues in the black community, and they're all intertwined.

 

as an old school fat white guy, I have to say that I have great sympathy for the plight of all minorities but more so for blacks because of the systemic prejudice that has been leveled at them for way too long. When I have come across white people who seem to have less sympathy and make disparaging remarks, I usually ask them how they would like to trade places with them, knowing everything they know as the white person they are. They always say, hell no, that would suck. Well, that is what they have been dealing with for a few hundred years. It totally sucks and everyone knows it. Nobody would want to be dealt that hand. That being said, we are getting things a little confused because the modern media tends to hide and obscure peoples true motivations. It seems to me that many of the leaders of the BLM organization are very anti America. Don't believe in capitalism, hate all our history and basically support a socialist Marxist agenda. That stuff I can't get behind. I have a hard time believing that these professional athletes can get behind that stuff either. It would be fairly hypocritical of them, considering the money they make and the lifestyles they live.

I am all for helping black people in this country, and I am all for continuing the conversations about how they are and have been treated in this country, and the rest of the world. It needs to be done. At some point, we all, including themselves, much reach down and pull them up by their bootstraps and take responsibility for their lives. If you look at history around the world, many people got treated like total sheeeeet. The Irish, the Chinese, the Japanese, Jewish people, Palestinians, etc, etc. We will never solve all the problems, but we can start by treating American people fairly who want to be part of this country and support our system. But people who treat others disparagingly, need to take a hard look at their own motivations and quit being a*******.

But if you want money for people with minds that hate, all I can tell you brother is you'll have to wait.

 

Seems like everyone is coming from a place of good intent with consensus that there are issues with both racism and policing in this country, maybe some disagreement on the extent to which the issues are connected or how the solutions should be addressed. Wanted to throw in my two cents on some of the points raised.

I agree with Weezy and Punk that I think the BLM focus on police brutality is more productive then trying to rally around all the problems. With the benefit being that despite its focus on police, the movement HAS raised discussion and awareness of more widespread systemic racist issues.

So John, I'm not sure if I agree with "riots for 1% of the problem while totally ignoring the 99%". I don't think those percentages are accurate, I don't think its accurate to describe the ongoing movements as "riots", and I don't think it's accurate that the movement is "totally ignoring" the systemic issues.

Here is an interesting article: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...of-black-and-white-murder-rates-idUSKBN23M2SX

The way I'm reading that is that proportionately, black people are killed by other black people at about the same rate as white people are killed by other white people. Overall there are more black people murdered, but it's not like only black people are killing each other while white people don't kill each other. It's just a matter of proximity. Regardless of your race, you are more likely to be killed by the demographics that comprise your surrounding community.

So I also don't agree that the movement would get more support from white community if the message focused more on black-on-black crime. The widespread systemic conditions and history of racist policies that have contributed to inner city violence is subtler and harder to rally a cause behind. On the other hand, police brutality is more visceral. Any mother of any race can see George Floyd desperately calling out for his mother with his final breaths and feel hurt. A story about a black person gunned down in south Chicago by gang violence? I think unfortunately that's more likely to get some of the racist "they need to pull themselves up by their boot straps, they're violent animals" views. Plus, I would imagine pointing out the racial problems with policing might appeal to white people who aren't as emotionally invested in racism, but are against big government and militarizing a police force that keeps the populace under their thumbs.

Leading to my next point, yes there is absolutely a non-racial component to policing issues. They have their own set of politics that prevents accountability. So revgen, I think I agree that pointing the finger at racism is not necessarily the solution; the deeper systemic policing issues are what gives cover to allow racists within their ranks to remain in power. But I hope you're not meaning that their ISN'T a problem of racism with police. I'll concede that some cases of police brutality were not primarily racially motivated (maybe even George Floyd) but many of them are, and again regardless of what's been video taped and we're aware of/how many official police kilings are on the record, it's obvious that milder discrimination is still prominent.

Wino, I don't know if BLM is an anti-America Marxist organization... but there is a distinction between the BLM organization and the BLM movement in the streets that is not necessarily directly connected to the similarly named organization. I do get the sense that the organization is taking advantage of the general movement and so realistically a lot of "donations" have probably just ended up lining the pockets of those in charge. I do think that the movement has been co-opted by some who do not actually have racism as their main priority. But that's not a problem in my view. They're seeing people march through the streets against racism and police brutality, and seeing a revolutionary energy in the young generation that until now has mostly been apolitical. So why not use the opportunity to also vocalize a demand for other more progressive agendas?

Not to get too off-topic, but "capitalism" and "socialist Marxist" are buzz words. There are VERY few people trying to tear down America or move to anarchy or complete communism. That's a misrepresentation. Mostly, we're just asking to fairly tax the wealthy and divert some of the funding away from the military/police state in order to help local communities. If that's "socialism", while "capitalism" is loan programs where billionaires and big corporations get millions of dollars in forgivable loans (ie taxpayer money) from funds that are supposed to go to small businesses affected by the pandemic ... then yeah sign me up for "socialism".

I think there is a broader conversation to be had about our country's nostalgic attachment to a white-washed history, dogmatic adherence to ancient documents, and unflinching loyalty to complex sociopolitical concepts that most of us only had surface-level exposure to via public schools that have their curriculum influenced by the people in political/economic power.

 

Sure, it’s the chicken or the egg. Police racism fuels violence in the community which fuels more police racism. Or inner city violence fuels police racism which fuels more inner city violence. An interconnected vicious circle. Doesn’t explain discrimination against black people in upper class communities that have a lower percentage of black people though.

I also don’t understand what you mean in your last paragraph. How is society handling this with kid gloves or not exposing all the issues? It seems like you’re suggesting that there is silence over how a minority of evil black people are fueling negative stereotypes and therefore contributing to the problem. That we need to call out and address those evil black people? Yet in saying that, it seems to me an oversimplification that still doesn’t expose all the issues.

The prevalence of black-on-black crime is not due to a higher prevalence of evil black people which seems to be the suggestion. These inner cities have been subject to decades of racist policies that have kept the community down and forced many into crime or drug abuse out of desperation.

One item that has been suggested in these conversations is the idea that the movement censors discussion and is too quick to label opposing views of racism. While there is an element of truth to that, I think it’s being exaggerated, and some takes are justifiably dismissed.

When legitimate racists point to black-on-black crime as the real problem, supporters of the movement don’t have the energy to try to iron out the nuance or rationale of other white people who echo those points on a case-by-case basis. Especially in situations like this where no matter what way I look at the nuance, it DOES come across like you’re deflecting blame to the black community which is not productive in addressing the much larger scope of historic systemic oppression.

In you’re example, you’re saying that you don’t blame innocent black people but that the brutality is fueled by cops interactions with evil black people. But are they “evil” people in the same vein as terrorists that want to destroy America? Absolutely not. Not a fan of comparing a poor black teen who got caught up in gang life after having their family locked up for weed to a jihadist.

Again, not suggesting you’re actually a racist or have any negative intent. Just trying to articulate why some of these viewpoints get the reaction they do from BLM supported.

This entire topic is basically “Yeah, racism is a problem ... BUT”. Can we just for one moment stop with the “BUT” and listen to the black community and try to resonate with their experiences that non-black people will never be able to understand?

 

Fantastic post. I just wanted to add a little nuance to your chicken n egg explanation. There’s another factor in addition to the racist policing, and it’s maybe what Savory was alluding to? If good, honest cops are exposed to mostly violent black people because that’s the neighborhood they happen to work, they are likely to develop a strong and justified, though unfair to generalize to all blacks, obviously, implicit bias, where they may overreact to a situation because they have a sensitized nervous system associating “black male in the hood” with “dangerous and aggressive” at a completely unconscious neurological level. In that fight or flight state, access to good judgment and emotional regulation is severely impaired. I’m not justifying overreactions, just pointing out that some (many?) are not overt racism. When I said they were justified earlier, I meant the nervous system was justified to make those unconscious associations.

 

Absolutely, I think you articulated better than I was trying to. Been bouncing around a few different topics so yes I do think there are a minority of overtly racist cops that their system protects. But on the topic of how police brutality ties into inner city violence, yeah I think a big component of that is the development of implicit biases. Cops that maybe originally did not have any racist tendencies and at their core are good people, but then their job has them deal with the worst aspects of gang violence in black communities (which again I think has systemic factors). Might very well develop biases and subconsciously treat black people differently. Even if the motivation is self-preservation, the end result is racist police enforcement.

A few ideas to mitigate that, the first one is non-racial. These cops need better and more frequent training so that they operate according to best practices instead of falling prey to their biases or instincts.

But I also think police need to be better ingrained in the communities they protect. They should be part of the community, not above them. There was a story at the start of the protests where a reporter was outside a liquor store as it was being looted. She was outside with the owners of the liquor store and tried to flag down some cops to help the store owners protect their property against the looters. The cops come and start handcuffing the owners of the liquor store. Of course the owners were black. Well maybe if the police knew the community better and had a rapport with the store owners, that wouldn’t happen. Although I admit I am greatly oversimplifying this.

 

As a white dude grown up in an upper middle class OC beach community, now working as a bleeding heart social worker in north Long Beach, building relationships and trust with the most violent and actively gang involved families of color is absolutely magical. It HAS to be done by law enforcement.

Why doesn’t more of this happen? I asked my best friend who’s a cop. He says the biggest hurdle is the productivity they’re expected to get. Yes, arrest quotas. It’s not explicitly ordered, but their performance evaluations are based on their numbers. The numbers chiefs want require cops no longer protecting and serving, but hassling people for minor bulls***. Who gets hassled the most; people of color with less education to know their rights. This leads to animosity of the civilians towards the cops, and then chicken n egg ensues. So, quotas need to go too.
Revgens point needs to happen as well.
Lastly, police requirements need to be higher. There should be a minimum of a BA, with several prerequisites of ethnic studies, social work, mental health, etc. Thry also need ongoing CE on conflict resolution and bias/racism, etc.
Aside from police reform, we need to continue dismantling systemic racism. A big, immediate help would be more funding of people like me in high risk areas.

 

I would explain it as subtler racism via institutions and policies that disproportionately keep communities of color down. NOT a racist neighbor who personally doesn't like black people, NOT the KKK or other extreme white supremacist organizations. I'm talking about voter suppression/gerrymandering, mass incarceration, unequal legal treatment, police discrimination, gentrification, housing discrimination, etc.

One individual overcoming some of these obstacle (or being in personal situations where these obstacles did not affect them) has no bearing on the fact that these issues still oppress the community at large. Obama being an adept politician and getting elected doesn't change the fact that you have voting stations in urban areas where there are only a handful of booths per hundreds of thousands of black voters. Lebron James getting rich and powerful doesn't change the fact that there are poor kids in Akron that had lesser access to quality education.

But don't take it from me, take it from Ben and Jerry's!

https://www.benjerry.com/whats-new/2016/systemic-racism-is-real

I'm curious what your understanding of the concept is.

The movement is not silent on the other parts. This is how I see it.

This is what the movement is trying to say: "Hey, here are some of the systemic issues that have kept us down for decades. We need help and empathy from more privileged communities on these points so we can rise out of this together. Specifically, let's take a moment to talk about police brutality because it has recently (and on an ongoing basis) hit home in a very visceral way that we hope we can all rally behind. If we can't focus and get your support on this issue, what hopes do we have to address the wider breadth of problems?"



To which some of you seem to be responding: "NO! Actually I say that THIS is the breakdown of the problem that YOU have lived. Stop exaggerating police brutality issues and let's focus on inner city violence and father issues which are moreso problems of your own making rather then symptoms of these other underlying causes. It really upsets me how, when I try to commandeer your discussion away from police brutality and towards talking points that insinuate fault in your own community without proposing any solutions myself, you all have the audacity to get upset at me in return."



It comes across as trying to wipe your hand clean and put the ball back in the court of the black community. "Yeah, I acknowledge racism is bad. That makes me a good person right? What else do you want from me? Work on your own issues first and then we can talk". The entire function of the argument seems to be to stop the discussion and to vent about the media/cancel culture.

If it was more "Yeah, police brutality is bad and we need to work on that. But I think another big factor is how the 13th amendment that "abolished" slavery literally says that slavery can still exist as "punishment for crime". And so as a result we have these private for-profit prisons that are disproportionately comprised of black people subjected to cheap labor, often for minor offenses like weed that white people are rarely imprisoned for. This takes fathers out of homes which contributes to some of the violence and gang culture within black communities, which in turns fuels police bias and brutality. You all work directly on the police brutality side of things, I want to help out by writing to my representatives about re-evaluating the imprisonment of non-violent drug offenses" ... then I could get behind your point a bit more.