Cameron Carr Discussion

i actually think the iq stuff a) is hard to know until they're in nba game action and b) is getting almost over-valued? i say the second part as someone who LOVES players who know where to be and can there, etc. but athleticism and skill (especially shot making) are also important. you're not getting someone with all that at 25. hell, i'm not positive you're getting someone with all that at 5 (e.g., wagler's not a great athlete).

i know people are sad about tarris reed. i'm not sure i am, even though mike garcia sold me a bit more on him than i was. but for me, this would have been a choice between two very different players in joshua jefferson (went 28th) and carr. jefferson's a big body who's not super athletic but has a super high hoop iq. this popped off the screen for me when i watched him in the same way carr's athleticism did. lots of draftniks are going for what's been rebranded as "processing speed". if that's truly king, jefferson should have been the pick, and i'll be watching him in particular going forward.

but if i'm making the choice between those two, i take carr, as i indicated in the draft thread when i realized he might fall to us. he's basically the exact archetype that you want if your top two players are luka and reaves. you need a guy with length and speed on the perimeter who can finish on the break, attack a closeout, and hit a three.

the question will just be that defense. it won't be pretty early on that end, is my guess. and he's not a jj guy because he's not a handler/passer. but jj also needs to adapt to the luka model a bit as well, imo. having luka and reaves means you don't actually need 5 guys who can dribble/pass/shoot. hell, the past few champs tell you this.

 

I actually think the last finalists show exactly you need 3-threat guys. Knicks and Spurs key rotation has it. Indiana and OKC too. Boston. Denver...

I think Knecht is a pretty glaring example of how important IQ is. You can jump off the building and shoot lights out and still be out of the league. When you're elite in 2 of the main skills of today's game (athleticism and shooting) and still have no place in the league shows how important IQ is.

It impacts a ton of things. Learning sets, be in the right position on both ends, make good decisions under pressure. Understand what you need to develop. League is at an elite level and you need to process things quickly because any mistake is quickly punished by opponents.

 

I agree with everything you’ve said. I should also clarify what I meant – IQ isn’t the most important attribute for a player in my view, especially when we already have Luka and, in all likelihood, Bron, Austin and perhaps Smart. It is, however, important and becomes problematic below a certain level. As @pika1708 rightly pointed out, Knecht is a rather stark example of how significant shortcomings in this one aspect can derail an NBA career, even despite very strong attributes in other areas.

Perhaps I’m overly sensitive on this issue due to Knecht, but reports of a low IQ worry me. Ultimately, as a role player, I’d prefer a guy who is slightly above average in all key aspects, rather than one who is an outstanding athlete and perhaps a great shooter, but with a very low IQ. Time will tell just how low that IQ is in this case.

In the meantime, I’ve listened to a few podcasts and it seems that most experts consider this pick to be excellent, so I’ll try to adopt a more optimistic outlook too.

 

If knecht could make his 3’s at a 40% clip he would get on the court regardless of his BBIQ

 

Yeah..the IQ stuff is a bit iffy for me too. If Dalton could guard anybody, he'd be given more rope too IMO.

 

he dum?

 

No he wouldn't. Otherwise Swider would be in the NBA.

Plus, bbiq is also about learning to adapt your game. Knecht never developed is off ball movement and ability to be a movement shooter. This because he lacks a feel for the game and IQ to know how to move or get his defender a step or 2 late.
Bbiq is also about finding ways to minimize your shortcomings. If the attacker blows past you, are you able to rotate properly? Guide him towards our big? Give him a little bump to knock off his momentum? So many things...

On Carr, in last night interview with ESPN he said a few times "he wants to dominate" which is an underwhelming choice of words. Doesn't seem to understand what he comes here to do. Knecht had a similar mindset. These guys were used to score at will in college and that made them get a wrong perspective of their role in the NBA.
Only I see this working is the kid really understand the role he will play for us and 50% is being a defensive plus. Hope it's what he works out the most in the offseason along with getting bulky

 

?

anunoby can neither dribble nor pass super effectively. hart can't shoot.

vassell is not a ballhandler nor passer. nor is keldon johnson.

dort, caruso, and cason wallace are not high level ballhandlers or passers.

christian braun and cam johnson are not high level ballhandlers or passers. nor was mpj when denver won it. gordon couldn't shoot until recently.

honestly, knecht just stopped making shots. the hoop iq thing was/is a problem, but if he shot 40% from three, i think we'd have found him minutes.

again, you're preaching to the choir. so josh jefferson was your pick here instead?

 

Carr is a good prospect. While I think we need size, we also need athleticism so I get the pick. He's got talent.

Also having Bennett assisting with the draft makes me trust things more.

Now we have to start actually developing our young guys.

 

They don't need to be triple double guys.
All those guys can put the ball on the floor, make the extra pass and are respectable shooters. It's about how you read the game and are able to do any of those things depending on what's needed. There were several stretches in this final where they took turns touching the paint from both sides, I think I even talked about it here.
Caruso was literally a secondary playmaker here. OG attacks closeouts. Dort growth on attacking the basket was evident. Gordon can't shoot but he constantly wins playoff games on a hot shooting night.
Robinson talked about it. He was an elite shooter but had to learn to attack the basket and make the extra pass to have a place in the league, after losing the rotation spot at Miami.

Because he couldn't follow a set to get him a good look. Didn't know how to create space on the weak side. And was an absolute cone on defense. He was absolutely lost on both sides of the court, was painful.
Hauser shoots lights out but it's his improvement on defense and rebounding that gives him extended minutes.

It has to be a balance. I'm not saying you just need bbiq. But between that and sheer athleticism, I rather get bbiq. Jefferson was a bad fit, I didn't want him.
I don't feel enamoured by none of the guys at this range. I'd rather had it traded for Herb, Gafford, even Turner or whatever

The peak of a #25 pick is right before or during the draft. Teams have a ton of scouting and workouts on the kids and feel enamoured by a few guys. We would allow them to pick a guy they wanted and saw, at a cost controlled salary for a few years. Teams in the bottom half want these guys and there was a deal out there to be had in a deep draft. I think we should've been more agressive

 

Cameron Carr
G
6'5" 175 lbs Baylor
10 POS RK
21 OVR RK
Pre-Draft Analysis

Strengths: Carr is a talented scorer and shotmaker with deep 3-point range. He's one of the draft's most explosive athletes and can play above the rim and finish. He's a good shot-blocker for a wing and has room to become a solid team defender.

Weaknesses: Carr is still a streaky shooter who often relies on tough looks. He also isn't much of a ball handler or playmaker for teammates, likely confining him to an off-ball role. His defensive impact was inconsistent in college.

The verdict: After spending two seasons mired on the bench at Tennessee, Carr broke out upon transferring to Baylor, showing NBA-caliber scoring upside, albeit on a middling team. Becoming a more consistent all-around performer and tougher defender will be key as he transitions likely into lower-usage role. -- Woo
Post-Draft Analysis

The Lakers traded up one spot with the Knicks to ensure they could select Carr, who was hoping to hear his name called in the teens. He ultimately fell, as teams instead strongly prioritized the point guard market in that range. He lands on a team that should be able to maximize his strengths, with his athleticism and shooting likely to play well off Luka Doncic, so it's a very good fit for him. -- Woo

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/teams/_/name/ny/new-york-knicks

 

Swider didn't really have the sample size and played garbage minutes mainly. Not really a good example.

A better one is Duncan Robinson. Doesn't really do much but shoot threes at a high rate. If you can shoot 38-40% from three with a large sample size, odds are teams will look past a lot of your deficiencies and give you a spot and hope that the rest of your game eventually develops into something more.

 

This is right on, our development and vision for our younger players has been shockingly bad. We just seem to expect them to become great on their own. AR developed despite how we have treated younger players not bc of it. Max Christie did as well. Most need guidance. JJ hasn't shown he has that make up yet. It does show the mental toughness of a player to succeed anyway. I think CC fits that mold. His bbiq is good enough. No genius but not a dummy either. This pick shows me that the upper muckity mucks are thinking better. That I like.

 

It's tough to develop players while also being in win-now mode.

This isn't exclusive to the Lakers. It's just what it is. It's tough to put an unproven player into the game when you have 3 guys who are capable of scoring 30+ points at any given night.

If the Lakers were a middle of the barrel team, just breaking into the playoffs but not really contender worthy, obviously you have more leeway to develop some players and take more risks with them. But often times, you gotta go with what has been working to try and stay up in the seeding and at the same time, keep the team running afloat.

 

All good stuff, I would just say that with three players like you spoke of, it should be easier to develop younger players. IMO, a coach needs the vision to recognize what a player can be and always be working toward that goal. In the past, the Lakers throw young players into situations they haven't been prepared for and then wonder why they fail. I look at a player and say, okay, what can he do for us by regionals or state while at the same time helping the player for the long term? Then from the very first second I have my hands on a player start working to achieve that end. It takes smarts and dedication but you can play to win now and develop players. If a coach isn't doing that, they are not doing their job. Just my humble opinion.

 

Poor example.swider has zero nba athleticism.I could name many NBA players with low BBIQ who got time because they could actually do NBA things on the court.Strange to me that you judge this kid poorly because he wants to maximize his ability.Like I said earlier every one loves Adu and this kid is a more skilled Adu

 

I think that's where we actually miss Phil Handy. He is replaceable though. We need a real portion of the staff devoted to developing our young guys.

 

Lakers have been criminally bad at developing players

It's like having a farm system in baseball

We should have been set with the best teachers and instructors to get the most out of the players we drafted

Now with this new staff I hope to see it action

Have guys working with them on shooting all kinds of shots daily and not just for a few minutes

Teach defense and rebounding, and instruct on how to get position yourself for the best results

Any player not willing to put in the ultimate work get rid of them and bring in the ones that want to be the best they can be for themselves and the team

 

It's funny that you mentioned 40% shooter and that dude brought up Cole Swider, a player who has never shot close to 40% for his career and has approximately 20 games as a sample size.

Yet, he wants to hate on a clearly very talented player who can be developed into a more athletic version of a Danny Green-type player for the Lakers.

The reason they got Carr is actually quite simple. They needed to develop a young 3/D guy to cover for Luka+Reaves after Smart is gone. Carr has the athleticism and wing span to become a very good defender in the league. If he puts on 15 lbs, he could guard the 1-3 spots. Instead, he's focused on Carr saying he wants to 'dominate' when that's literally the mentality of every young player entering the draft.