Official Whine, Moan, Complain Thread 19/20-CLOSED "WE CHAMPS!"

LTLakerFan said: ↑
Defense is why no one wants any part of him ever again! For Danny Green who is strong on defense, can shoot the 3 and is not a midget? You pick the damnedest most unpopular causes to champion. Why is that?

You got too many silly hills you're willing to die on it seems. Reserving your opinion of basically Ingram vs Davis trade for what happens 3 years from now. Defending James Harden's hideous style of play as if he's your brother. IT back in here after his s****y stint 2 years ago being a HUGE (for a midget) liability on defense .... for Kyle Kuzma and now Danny Green just because someone poked you? I think I'm forgetting one or two.

 

GS going down and losing Durant would have hit ratings but with Zion hurt as well it was a double whammy

Next year if Durant is back to 90% there maybe a reverse big bump in ratings. GS and Steph will be back, LeBron shows no signs of slowing down and then you have Durant and Zion on East coast time

 

I said the trade is looking good but the long term results will be known in time. Not really controversial

Playing devil's advocate about Harden. I can take or leave this one... but on a slow traffic day, sure I'll respond if no one brings up something better.

People were spitballing ideas about how to create more offense... I threw out Kuzma for IT because he was one of the few people I thought we could actually acquire for him... but later I also said that IT looked very ordinary when we played them. Ordinary IT is definitely not worth the defensive liability... good IT is. Already admitted this, but when people keep bringing it up because they are bored... I'll keep pointing out how although I was wrong, it wasn't absurd as some are trying to make it.

People do overrate Danny Green here... People did on some of the other boards as well. Doesn't mean he isn't essential to winning this year, he is... but we are overpaying for him I feel. Only brought up the comparison when someone decided to have fun with it again. This issue might become a thorn in our side when we are trying to rebuild the team with more limited space next season.

You guys are funny. You have a good group of posters but they tend to agree with each other all the time. It's like the same dozen people who sit in the barbershop all day long and are content to roll with those people until the end of time. You have each other's backs and you think the community you've built is enough and you don't care if any outsider comes as long as they kind of go with your flow.

That's fine... and I'll try to always respect that dynamic... but this being said, if someone brings up a point I made over and over, I'll keep responding.

Not because I'm upset or trying to troll but because I believe in what I say.

 

I disagree. You're making quite the outlandish statements that put you in a severe minority. It's tough to side with someone who said they would rather have IT than Kuzma at any point this season. What IT gives offensively is countered by what he gives up defensively. Granted, Kuzma's defense is horrendous but at least he is capable of switching onto other players. What in any shape or form can IT guard? Nevermind the fact that we are heavy in our guard rotation so trading for IT only turns us into a guard-oriented team with guys struggling to get any decent minutes as it is.

Danny Green is slightly overrated but you're paying for a B+ defender who made 45% of his threes last season. He also seldom makes the incorrect play and has been on two championship teams playing 30 minutes in each of his two rings. Guys with championship pedigree will get paid more and Danny Green was a great signing considering what was left out in the market. Notice, not a single individual has an issue with Danny Green starting on ANY team. He might be overrated but he's worth it.

As for the trade, dude, stop it. There is no long-term. We have LeBron still playing at the very least, a top three player in basketball and we weren't going to squander that by having him play with: A) A depressed Ingram, B) Josh "Fortnite" Hart, C) Lonzo "I've got no" Balls - all three who are leading their team to the 5th worst record in the league and the 2nd worst in the West. How good are they, really? Ingram's got some good numbers but he's on a bad team where he's going to get the ball to stuff the stat-sheet. A losing player with more possessions is still a losing player. How is it that our next best three players after LeBron on the Lakers last season were Ingram, Hart, and Lonzo and ALL three of them are now an afterthought as to potential other than Ingram who again, has shown zero capacity to become a generational player the way AD is and will be for the foreseeable future. You're also not admitting to the fact that Ingram was going to get a hefty paycheck in the market. Ben Simmons racked in a five year-$170 million contract. Even if Ingram gets $150, I'm sorry but he is not worth spicing up our salary cap with what he has shown thus far. AD is worth $50 million+ if we are paying players based on their actual ability to play basketball and he sacrificed more money to play with us. He's leading our team in rebounds, steals, points, blocks, and PER while putting himself as the leader in the DPOY ranking and is blocking the most shots in the NBA currently.

I know you're trying to be objective but there is objectivity and then there are argumentative talking points and saying silly stuff like Kuzma for IT or that the Ball, Hart, and Ingram trade is still TBD is laughable. You do realize that the only reason the Pelicans traded AD was due to AD wanting out and specifically mentioned the Lakers, right? If AD never mentioned the Lakers, there isn't a single team outside the Bucks, Lakers, Warriors, and the Rockets who wouldn't have opened their roster to trade for AD. Literally, every team outside those four would have said "Take who you want and then some." The fact we gave up three unaccomplished players for AD and now AD doing what he is doing makes this the steal of the offseason. Pelicans didn't want to trade with the Lakers. If every team in the NBA was included, we probably wouldn't even have a top 7 offer to give the Pelicans.

 

Appreciate the thoughtful post but again you ignore context.
The IT discussion was a spitballing session where a few people were throwing out names.
All I did was throw his name out there... nothing more... but as people kept reminding me about it days and weeks later... of course I'm going to respond. He's looked better than he did with us... but nothing special... and I conceded that you shouldn't trade Kuzma in that situation... but it wasn't crazy at the time. I'd still sign him if he came available next year.

I'm happy with the team's success right now. I only respond to the trigger... there's no discussion that this was the right move. It may be the right move... but sure, there is a discussion. If people say they are simply happy with the team... I don't sh*t on those comments... it's the arrogant ones who think nothing can possibly go wrong that make me comment.

I think AD is better than Ingram overall... but I don't believe it will be the enormous chasm that you and most others insist. It's true Ingram's done nothing... but neither did AD until he was paired with LBJ. AD is far superior defensively... and that should keep him above Ingram for some time... but that it's written in stone, who can say. Last year people told me he'd never average 20 points a game... that he was too weak and unathletic to be an all star. They told me he couldn't shoot free throws and threes. I will gladly concede AD is better, but I also will not put a ceiling on Ingram just yet.

You get upset with my leaps of faith but you are also making huge assumptions with what teams would have offered for AD. I think it's possible you are right, but it's also possible other managers might not have gone as far. We truly don't know what would have happened and while I don't mind you giving an educated guess, I think you should give me similar courtesy even if you disagree.

An equally important component to the AD acquisition was the addition of key vets that filled roles much better than what Magic brought us last season.

Who knows what the kids would have done with shooters and someone like Dwight anchoring the defense? If Rob doesn't come up with this group, especially Dwight... we could easily have disappointed.

No one wanted Dwight... no one wanted Boogie... people laughed at me when I wanted Rondo and insisted that if we rolled with players like Ennis and Nwaba we'd be fine. It's easy to say things are good after the fact... but it's much more difficult to say them when no one else believes them. I also called Caruso would be a good player after his summer league... and many called him a scrub on one of the other boards I frequented.

I will always try to be respectful of other posters, but I will also stand my ground if I believe something.

 

I’m just appreciative that you use paragraphs

 

adding a personal insult on top your obvious difficulty comprehending the nearly air-tight counter argument that has been presented several times over by several different people...it's not going to help your cause.

re-read bang's post, particularly the last line.

 

Not understanding the new IT hype, and I’m a fan of IT. I said this before but IT has already played with LeBron in Cleveland and it didn’t work, as in reports of LeBron shading on IT. So why are people barking up this tree now? Move on.

 

Its all in jest on my part. Kuz for IT was brought up last week.

 

"obvious difficulty comprehending" vs arrogant? Which is the more insulting?

The irony here as no matter how much you disagree... it's a subjective call. There is no empirical truth... Steve Mason admitted he and many others was wrong about the trade only yesterday. This implies there was a variety of public opinion even among paid professionals beyond the sentiments of this board. There is no doubt that the results have been good... but who knows what the young core would do with a healthy LBJ, a rejuvenated Dwight and actual shooters. AD is better... I've said this... but he cannot defend three people... he doesn't have eighteen fouls to give... he cannot be everywhere at the same time and there are some benefits to having the depth.

If you go on a politically liberal board and you are a Trump supporter... no one will agree with you... but does that mean you are necessarily wrong?

If you go on a conservative board and you are a Bernie supporter... no one will agree with you... but does that mean you are wrong?

The reason I'm pointing this out is to demonstrate how closed minded even a large group of people can be if they only listen to their own group's talking points.

For the umpteenth time, I said the results have been good so far and I'm enjoying the team. I'm concerned about what happened with the Clippers, Raptors, and Dallas... but I've said I will reserve judgment until we've played them again in terms of our ability to win a title. If we resolve those issues and win the title... then you can say this was an unmitigated success this season... but then we have to re-sign the key players that got us the title, draft well, and position ourselves for the future. I'm optimistic after the signings this season, but anyone would require more than a scientific sampling of one especially after the signing fiasco last season.

You tell me I have difficulty comprehending your point of the view and the majority of the board's view but the converse is true as well.

Is it possible the kids could have succeeded with this team? Probably as LBJ is the most important player.

Is it possible that their record would be as good? Unlikely... so in this sense you all are right.

Would the team have more flexibility to make moves, more ability to withstand an injury, more ability to improve through the draft? Yes.

If you can't see there was more than one reasonable path to success, then who really has the difficulty comprehending.

 

Aye chiwowhau...it's cause the dog would be barking in a new yard. Did Rondo, Lance, Noah and Kanter not have beef with Bron? Yet we worked them out to potentially/successfully team em up with Bron.

I'm not going to champion Kuz for IT, cuz I dont think that trade proposal floats, Billy. But Kuz for IT/Wiz 2020 unprotected 1st is worth listening to, really. That type of pick, flipped, could bring back a nice lil piece, kuz remember we can’t trade any version of OUR picks this year. But we can trade another team’s pick tho.

IT is no bozo when it comes to usage and playmaking, but his recent health status ain't no joke. Which is why there are definitely better options to be had. Then you incorporate the defensive end and he becomes that much more of a liability even if healthy.

Still, if you care about our title chances, you have to care about our stars. As much as we want to crown Vogs as the CoY, without Bron, our offense is a clown show. From Vogs, to Green, to Av, to Caruso, our defense ain’t the s*** without AD tho.

I like proactive strategy to address our weaknesses before the competition can exploit it. Some of us actually want to discuss that rather than, “hey we won another regular season game...we the best...okay, good talk...let’s pick it up right where we left off after the next W”. So whether it’s abeer (via buyout), sentient (via Kuz on the block) or whoever that’s running ideas to get better, I f*** with it, even if I disagree with it. We haven’t won s*** for a minute and this squad hasn’t won s*** yet either, so f*** the complacency and fatcatitis...address potential weaknesses now instead of waiting around hoping IT doesn’t happen.

Plus I hear Bron totally f***s with IT...

 

I think Cook is supposed to play that role. He’s no IT in shooting 3’s, but that’s essentially the same role. Cook can do the role if given more time. It seems that Rondo has taken up more minutes that I thought would have gone to Cook to load manage Rondo. Maybe this dynamic changes in the second half of the season.

 

Folks are down on Rondo, but I believe in that dude. I think we have to, cause Bron is that important.

But you bring up a great point. We gotta protect Rondo as well in the regular season. That’s where Caruso and Cook come in and if Caruso is manhandling the defense, Cook needs to step in and handle the offense. I’m not even looking for his shooting. He needs to playmake for others the way Bron/‘Do do.

 

Unless something has annoyed Vogel behind the scenes with Cook which I highly doubt, it could just be as I mentioned yesterday Vogel has been playing Daniels each game of late some minutes probably trying to get him untracked with his shooting and comfortable when called upon. And if that's the case it seems to be working a bit. So right now Daniels too is getting some of Cook's minutes. He went off for 17 points several games back so I doubt lack of playing time at the moment is due to his performance.

 

That’s my biggest concern for a championship run is getting our 3pt shooters dialed into everything. We have good 3pt stats now because the stars are getting good looks for everyone. But the 3pt specialists are still not dialed in, and I expect that will change in the second half of the season. Then watch out!

 

Our coach values defense. Caruso, Av and ‘Do all ain’t the shooters Trey and Cook are...but they ain’t seeing time if they keep putting our interior defense at risk.

With Daniels in particular, our defense goes to s***. The stats corroborate that. I do see the effort out there, so there’s that...but he is a defensive liability. Single skilled offensive players are my least favorite and it seems that Vogs shares the same outlook.

 

I see that. I guess I’m envisioning those moments in a game when there’s a shootout going on, which happen to be my favorite times of a game. We need those 3 slingers to help keep pace with a Houston or Portland or flipper, etc., and to extend a lead when the core is taking a blow. The second unit did a great job of maintaining or extending the lead against Utah. Damn that was a beat down. Haa.

 

what on earth is this? a mission statement for negative selective abstraction? you're concerned about the three losses?

if we win the title, the season has been a success? as i've already said, i have no idea what you're driving at most of the time.

 

Again, don't be intentionally obtuse.

Your posts are well thought out and argued... you can understand what I'm saying.

We didn't match up well against those teams. We lost pretty convincingly to the Raptors and the Clippers... we struggled to beat the Mavs and then outright lost. On the flip side of the coin, we dominated the Nuggets, the Jazz, the Heat... so that tells another tale.

All I said is that hopefully we will have success on Christmas and the last December game, and that will let us know better if we need to make adjustments. I'd feel less worried if we randomly loss to poor teams than these better teams, as then you could chalk that up more easily to an off evening. If win against the Clips and Mavs this month, then you know we should be the favorites to win it all.

The trading everyone for LBJ's window must end in a championship... maybe not this year... but at least within three. Anything less is a failure as we've mortgaged our future to win now. We would have been a playoff team with the kids anyway so making the playoffs is not a big deal.

I do believe we can win now... and if we beat the Clippers and Mavs and give the Bucks a good match this month, I think we will.

 

OK fine. No validity to what I just said about perhaps why Cook who someone said was supposed to play the IT role and was trending upward with his offense with the 17 point breakout game now is seeing less minutes, yet Daniels has been getting some time of late seeming to help him a bit get untracked. Rondo is not a defensive savant any more either. But we need playmaking. Well we need shooting too and Daniels is starting to hit a little better and Cook's game mentioned above.