President Trump

Thanks real.

1) I would not have a problem if the NFL ownership and NFLPA had agreed that all players would be out for the National Anthem standing in respect for the Anthem. If that was part of their contract I would be all over the players who are now breaking their own contracts. The problem is, and I didn't talk about it in my first message, is that the players are under contract to do certain things. More importantly, in my mind at least, they can't be forced to be patriotic. Even though they had been used for that very purpose without the compensation that said owners got from the government. I personally was happy it made such a uproar and that players started unifying in arms and not simply kneeling but that is my personal point of view. Now if it is discussed and agreed upon like the player conduct policy the NLFPA agreed with then I see fines, suspensions and things but not like this is being reported.

2. It is abstract but the simple point I was making was if company "A" can do this then company "B" should be able to as well because all things are equal. People are yelling about these "millionaire" players but that is irrelevant to the fact that the NFL is private company with employees that we are saying have to stand and be patriotic. If they have to then everyone has to, right?

3. We have freedoms but those freedoms are not without consequences. Kapernick chose to take a stand. He used his freedom to do so. He doesn't have a job in the NFL right now because owners are free to hire who they would like on their teams as long as they are not discriminating (or can be proven) for race, sexual orientation, age or religious preferences. Kap, in my opinion, simply is an average QB who would prob have a back up roll somewhere especially if Jay Cutler got back in the league if he hadn't became the focal point of this protest. That is my speculation but either way teams don't have to bring him in.

As far as your selfish reasons I understand that completely. We all have what we want to watch and hear. I hate listening to other teams announcers talk period but It is what it is. I think people use their platforms the best they can to bring change as they see fit. Some I agree with and some I don't but in the end nothing the players have done has stopped the production of the games themselves. They did not cause delays in any of the proceedings but they did cause people to converse about these important (to some) topics.

I know John316 and I had a great conversation on this topic. I don't think we do if it hadn't been for these protest.

 

I agree about what you said about Kaep, but what's happening now has deviated away from what he was protesting for. We now have a big argument over kneeling or standing during the national anthem, not about the social issues/messages that Kaep brought up when he initially protested. I haven't heard of the social issues or causes that the current NFL players are kneeling for. To me, they are kneeling because they dislike Trump for criticizing them.

 

I wonder how many people know that Kaep actually got the idea for kneeling, instead of sitting, from a conversation with a Green Beret Vet who sat down with Colin to discuss this issue like two grown men and listen to each other's side of the story?

And I wonder how many people would actually understand why the Green Beret suggested kneeling instead of sitting and change their perception.

 

You're right. Because how do a group of White Supremecists and Neo-Nazi's spewing hate speech, carrying very unpatriotic Conferderate flags, be called "very fine people", but NFL players peacefully protesting a controversial topic be called "Sons of B&@ches" without any provocation to Trump directly?

Trump brought this on himself, but the message is still the same, if anything, it's progressed now into a message of unity for the players against someone who is consistently trying to divide us as a nation, hence the players of ALL races held arms together.

 

Thanks Savory.

1. The issue I have here is that we are talking about rules that are in-place. You can't wear shorts and sandals to work because you signed a contract that has a dress code of some sort. People under contract are subject to those rules. Now the NFL does have a little catch all rule for doing things detrimental to the image of the NFL (I believe) and this could fall under that, however, the NFLPA can then file a grievance if the players find it excessive or unfair/fit. They have contracts. The NFL can't simply say, you will shut up and color. An owner doesn't just get to do what he/she wants especially when there are unions involved. Unions protect the workers. In this case, the workers are now being forced to do something that is A) not in their contracts and B) not actually enforceable as a requirement for civilian employment. That being said, what is the standard that "every job across the country" is using? I'd assume there is a fair and equal treatment law to ensure that everyone gets the same treatment and are afforded the same rules across the board. Rank has its privileges for sure but that would be extra privileges that does not exclude the basic ones for everyone. If every person who falls under the NFL brand doesn't have to be out there standing and praising the flag then it isn't enforceable in my opinion.

2. This is the big one for me. I have to disagree that ANY American company can force patriotism. They simply can not do it. The same as they could not force a religion or religious belief on their employees (see lawsuit against Hobby Lobby a few years ago). To put a finer point on it, there is nothing in our Constitution or Laws that says an American must be or must show Patriotism. No civilian can be made to stand for the flag or the anthem period. It isn't a law and it can't be forced. I agree with you that every action is open to reaction and Jerry's action (or reaction I guess is better) will have its own ramification because yea no one cares when the back up or the 2nd tier player gets fined or suspended but what happens if Dak and Zeke both kneel? This was a bad move by Jerry. However, like Therealdeal said in one of his responses the NFL has said it will work with the Players. Each time they try to force this more players will stand up to it.

3. I agree that this could be a result although I think the NFL would avoid this at all cost.

 

Trump has tweeted twice in the last 24 hours about news outlets having their license revoked because of being "fake"...I don't care what side of the aisle you're on, this can't be normalized or defended rationally. I can disagree with someone politically all day long, but when they start calling for first amendment rights to be taken away, it's not only abnormal, but despicable and disgraceful. This man is a disgrace to America and what it stands for. It's as simple as that, and in my opinion, grounds for impeachment. Freedom of the press is a basic right in this country and the fact that he wants to threaten shows how dangerous he is to our nation.

 

It's mostly an empty and meaningless threat, but your point is well taken. Trump has little respect for the rule of law.

 

I'd like to see all the Cowboys kneel just to see what Jerry would do.

I'd like to see news outlets penalized for publishing false or staged news of any kind.

I'd like to see corruption of all types on all sides exposed and see the guilty parties do time or pay the appropriate price.

I'd like to see a minimum balance of a few million dollars in my petty cash bank account tomorrow just because.

 

Forced patriotism and regulated media?

Kim Jong Trump?

 

The mainstream media isn't really covering this too much, but Trump probably signed his most important executive order of his presidential tenure today.

The executive order allows individuals to buy insurance across state lines and allows small businesses to pool their resources into group associations, which can negotiate with insurance companies for lower rates. The regulations will also make it easier for employers to give employees cash to buy insurance elsewhere if they aren't satisfied with the insurance they receive from the employer.

The executive order stops short of allowing individuals to join groups like AARP or other non-employment associations to negotiate lower rates.

Once these new regulations go into effect, individuals who cannot acquire or afford Obamacare insurance plans will have a greater diversity of options available to them.

 

Good points.

1a. The key to the first point is actually my point. Companies change rules but you have to read the policy. Policy changes happen. However, if it is under contract then that has to amended and signed. As they say in court, no agreement other than a new written agreement can alter a written agreement. Add to that the NFLPA is a union and it is nearly impossible to simply force a new policy that isn't agreed upon.

1b. You make a good point I wondered myself if the NFL would use that line to justify forcing them to stand. Then I thought about what could happen if they did. First, the league would have to prove that ratings took a significant hit directly from the kneeling. That is hard to do considering the ratings were already going down. Second, If the league simply said "all players will be out and standing for the National Anthem" then the NFLPA could file a grievance and possible legal action. Third, and my personal opinion, if the league was smart they would say that players can choose to not participate in the singing the National anthem by staying in the Locker room until it is concluded. Those choosing to come out need to stand for the anthem. NFLPA would have to agree of course. Again, if the league tries to force it I think they will have major issues in the long run because they don't have that power, again, in my opinion.

2. The issue is what someone "feels" has little to do with the law. That is where people are missing the big point. Our personal opinions are not to be taken into consideration when it comes to enforcing something that isn't enforceable at this time. If they make the players do it then they have to ensure ALL employees do it. That is the fine line that is being walked right now. For the record, a company can not fire you for not doing something that is not mandatory or signed and agreed upon under the persons employment contract. There are some grey areas of course where , like you said, things like "detriment to the company" or something like that but that is hard to prove and even harder to fire someone over. They have to have more reasons to let you go.

2b. jeans fall under dress code. A company can make anything possible providing that it is within their legal right to do so. Again, I refer back to Hobby Lobby being sued because of the Birth Control issue. The owners could not force their religious beliefs on their employees. The NFL is a company. The players are under contract. Those contracts stipulate what is acceptable and unacceptable. You cannot amend a contract without negotiation. plain and simple. That is my point. Now, if the players got a piece of the money that was paid to the NFL to put them out there for patriotic display then that would be them agreeing to having to be out there. I would personally be on the side of the NFL then. That isn't the case for what I understand. Last point yes a player can be cut or waived but he is getting his money. Then that player can go play somewhere else and get paid again. He isn't taking a loss for that but the team will be.

In the end, I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the players just that we cannot hold them to a standard that every other American isn't being held to. A Muslim business owner can't require all his people sit kneeling while those who follow the faith do their prayers 5 times a day. How could we force someone to stand for the National Anthem? I get what you are saying and and am not disagreeing that the possibilities are there for sure. We shall see how it plays out.