Official 2016 Free Agency Thread

Discussion in 'Lakers Discussion' started by LaVarBallsDad, Nov 16, 2015.

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  1. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    I'm guessing this is based on a statistical analysis? because to my eye, oladipo is a 1/2 tweener who doesn't project as a star-level player, whereas butler has a clear position and IS a star.
     
    abeer3, Apr 4, 2016
    #781
  2. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    Contrary to my role on the board here, I don't stat watch other teams and players. It's based on seeing him in Orlando, where I live.

    I think talk of X's position are now more and more massively overstated. Positionless basketball is a reality. I mean, if Draymond Green fill the "3&D" role, no reason why Dipo can't play SG on a team. And, again, he's younger than Butler, and through this age, he's a better player.

    All that said, Butler took a huge leap in terms of his skills between about 23 to 24. It's not often duplicated. Butler is still better than the vast majority of players in the NBA, and he's clearly one of the best players we'd have any shot of getting.
     
    trodgers, Apr 4, 2016
    #782
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  3. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    That's some good math, college boy.
     
    trodgers, Apr 4, 2016
    #783
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  4. tada

    tada - Lakers All Star -

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    trodgers, you are welcome to disagree with my posts but I don't appreciate name-calling and personal attacks. Btw I'm 37, skipped college, self-employed, married and have 2 children.

    Please take that statement back.
     
    tada, Apr 4, 2016
    #784
  5. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    OK. You can't just leave injuries out. That's not possible. Part of being "great" is durability. It looks like you have Oladipo bolded. If that's the case, then there is honestly no reason to continue with this conversation. I'm not saying that all indignant or anything. I respect your opinion. But If I'm debating Butler's value with someone who thinks he is equal in value right now to Oladipo, then I can't convince you. Like I said, I'm not saying this in a way where I'm dismissing you or anything. I don't want you to take it that way. But if that's your baseline on Butler, then you would never trade the #1 or 2 pick for him. Heck, if I believed Butler was equal to Oladipo at this moment, I wouldn't make the trade either.

    :Beertoast2:
     
    Savory Griddles, Apr 4, 2016
    #785
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  6. Lakers2015

    Lakers2015 - Lakers Starter -

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    Jimmy Butler is one of the best two way players in basketball. It's a no brainer if we could get him for the #2 or #1 and Clarkson. As long as D'Angelo or Julius aren't in that deal you have to do that deal. The guy has improved every year. He would instantly upgrade our perimeter defense. Gives us a legitimate #1 option on offense. Takes a huge load off two young bucks a couple of years away. Then you give yourselves a legit shot at Durant. Even if not you add two All Stars in Whiteside and Butler. If Durant walks that's probably a top five team in the West. A lineup of Whiteside, Batum, Butler, Julius and D'Angelo is one of the best in the league in a couple of years. Only problem is Westbrook is a free agent a year later. It would probably take us out of the running for him unless we could unload Batum.
     
    Lakers2015, Apr 4, 2016
    #786
  7. TheGreatOneKobe

    TheGreatOneKobe - Rookie -

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    That's too much for Butler in my eyes.

    Mentioned this in "NCAA Prospects" so I'll mention it here too;

    In the past 9 drafts Kevin Pelton's top 3 ranked players are
    1) Anthony Davis
    2) Ben Simmons
    3) Brandon Ingram

    I'll risk the upside of Simmons/Ingram rather than a quick fix trade for Butler.
    Look at the Cavaliers, think they'd trade Wiggins for Love again? I don't think they would and Love was a much better player at the time than Butler. Coaching, systems, and environments matter, just cause you're a star on one team doesn't mean that will translate to EVERY team.
     
    TheGreatOneKobe, Apr 4, 2016
    #787
  8. Lakers2015

    Lakers2015 - Lakers Starter -

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    I don't agree that Love was ever much better than Butler. I think it's the other way around. Like I said Jimmy is a terrific two way player. A great defender and one of the top scorers in the league as well. I don't think it's too much. I like Ingram, but he's not Kevin Durant. Could he reach a guy like Butler one day? Maybe, but the kid is at least a few years away. If you have a chance to get a terrific player like Butler who immediately makes the team better you do it.
     
    Lakers2015, Apr 4, 2016
    #788
  9. TheGreatOneKobe

    TheGreatOneKobe - Rookie -

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    Seriously? In 2013 Kevin Love was the best PF in the country and it wasn't even close. Same in 2012 and 2011.

    Butler, at best, is 3rd on the SG list behind Harden and Klay.
     
    TheGreatOneKobe, Apr 4, 2016
    #789
  10. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not convinced Butler is worse than Klay. Klay has been exposed a few times for being one-dimensional when Curry is out. I'd say they're probably equal with maybe even a slight edge to Butler. Harden is better as is Kawhi who is more of a SF, but in today's NBA the SG and SF are pretty interchangeable.
     
    therealdeal, Apr 4, 2016
    #790
  11. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    Butler's main appeal would be to free agents as well. Who wants to sign with a bunch of kids? At least having Butler would give us one legitimate All star to act as a magnet. right now all we have is cap space, cap space and more cap space.
     
    Savory Griddles, Apr 4, 2016
    #791
  12. TheGreatOneKobe

    TheGreatOneKobe - Rookie -

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    My point wasn't about how good Butler is now.

    I'm saying that Butler today doesn't hold a candle to 2013 Love and as great as that trade sounded 3 years ago the Cav's regret it today.

    PS. Good call on Kawhi, I'd trade the #1-2 pick for him lol *dreaming*
     
    TheGreatOneKobe, Apr 4, 2016
    #792
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  13. TheGreatOneKobe

    TheGreatOneKobe - Rookie -

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    A magnet? Let's look at some "magnets" around the league

    Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Paul George, Dirk, Andre Drummond, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul, Cousin's, Damian Lilard and on and on and on...

    I don't believe in FA magnets, we would have super teams if that was the case.

    After 16 years of being great the Spurs finally landed a top tier FA. Nothing beats Drafting well, period.
     
    TheGreatOneKobe, Apr 4, 2016
    #793
  14. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd trade our pick for Butler, but I still want to see the kids work out first.

    The truth is there is no singular "way" to greatness, there's lots of ways. The Heat signed theirs in FA, the Lakers have made trades for theirs, the Warriors were able to draft theirs (and they still made a lot of trades too).

    I like Ingram a lot. I think he's going to be a good pro, but he could take 3 years to be something and after 3 years he might never reach that potential. THAT is the trap of building through the draft. You have to be great at evaluating not just physical talent and ability, but heart on the court AND whether or not the kid has a good head on his shoulders. Sometimes kids can say all the right things, but once they're on your team they turn out to be duds. Personally, I have great faith in our scouting department and I think we've hit home runs at each of our respective draft spots BUT it's still way too early to say whether our talent pans out the way their potential could.

    Unless I see something groundbreaking in the workouts with Ingram, Simmons, Brown, Bender, Dunn, Hield, and maybe Maker if he's lucky, I'm going to shop the hell out of that pick. I think there's a good shot you could get a guy like Butler for a Top 3 pick this year. Could Ingram or Simmons be better than Butler? Yeah maybe eventually, but I'm not sure they'll be better as rookies. That's on the FO to figure out. If they work the kids out and figure "okay this guy is a stud from Day One ready to carry us forward), then keep him and fill in around him with overpaid veterans. If they see the workout and the kid looks great, but could take a few years then I want to move the pick and get better NOW.

    Butler is a two-time All-Star that is well respected in the NBA. He's one of the best SG/SFs and his contract is going to be awesome when the new CBA hits. If you can move the #1-#3 pick/Clarkson or Lou Williams/and maybe dump Nick Young in the deal to Chicago for Jimmy Butler, I think it's absolutely worth considering.

    You can conceivably have an All-Star, two growing young stars, and two max slots available which looks far more appealing to any FA than two max slots and 4 young players.

    All that said, if we keep the pick and it's Ingram or Simmons then I'm happy. Just so long as we fire Byron Scott, we'll have a fun year watching the kids develop. If we keep Byron then... well nothing good will happen.
     
    therealdeal, Apr 4, 2016
    #794
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  15. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    Cool. You named a bunch of teams that are at the cap or over it and can't afford a max deal other than the Mavs, and Dirk is a shell of himself. We would have Butler and two max slots.
     
    Savory Griddles, Apr 4, 2016
    #795
  16. Lakers2015

    Lakers2015 - Lakers Starter -

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    No he wasn't. Dirk was the best in 2011. Love couldn't dream of playing the way he did in the 2011 playoffs. Love put up great numbers, but I never felt his impact was great. That's showing itself in Cleveland. He never even made the playoffs. Not once in his career until playing in Cleveland. Also I would put Butler over Klay. Klay is terrific, but look how he's performed without Steph. He's a great second option, but he isn't a legit #1 like Butler has been the last two years. He's a complimentary all star.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
    Lakers2015, Apr 4, 2016
    #796
  17. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    I'm still not on board with position-less basketball in its most extreme form. someone's going to have to win the title doing it for me to buy it, and GS doesn't qualify at all, imo. curry's a pg--he defends that spot and takes care of the primary duties of that spot as traditionally described. klay's a prototypical sg. barnes and iggy are both prototypical sfs. green's a pf who can switch to c as long as the other team's center isn't big and skilled (although mozgov looked like a force of nature at times in the finals last year), and bogut and ezeli are classic cs. gs is super traditional, imo. I suppose having green make plays is unusual, but it's not unprecedented, and it doesn't mean he's not still playing pf.

    ok, put it this way: if you have oladipo, it means you have to adjust the rest of your personnel to fit his game (find a pg who can both shoot and defend opposing sg/sfs--neat trick, btw). there are lots of other players like this, and you have to be really, really good in order to justify tweaking a system to fit a single player.

    we'll see, going forward. if the bucks really start just throwing out 5 6'8" guys with interchangeable offensive and defensive roles and winning basketball games this way, maybe the revolution will be in full effect. I don't really see it now, though.

    wow, that's a lot of talk about victor oladipo.
     
    abeer3, Apr 4, 2016
    #797
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  18. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    It's a quote from The Rules of Attraction. Not a name-call.
     
    trodgers, Apr 4, 2016
    #798
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  19. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    For what it's with, I think the odds of getting someone better than Butler is now are decent, but not as high as 60%. I was honestly giving you respect for the math. For reals.
     
    trodgers, Apr 4, 2016
    #799
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  20. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers Legend -

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    not that it matters, but I read trod's (can this be a thing?) comment as a general joke/quip, and not a shot at tada.

    anyway, let's get back to victor oladipo and only victor oladipo.
     
    abeer3, Apr 4, 2016
    #800
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