Presidential Election Aftermath: What Now / What Next?

Again though that's not my point. My point is could they be happier than they are? Do they even know? All they know is what they're seeing and what they're seeing is contentment, but it's not what I want. I don't want to work hard so that my money can go to someone else. I want to work hard so that I can get my own money and support my own family and leave them with something greater than I had. Isn't that what the American dream is supposed to be? Suddenly it's changed and now the idea is to work a little bit and be content with your lot in life. There used to not be anywhere in the world where someone could go from rags to riches as easily as the US and I would like for it to go back there, not go to Socialism.

The system might be broken, but that doesn't mean Socialism is the fix.

 

We go to Socialism and I promise you, I won't work hard anymore. I'm old and tired. Feel sorry for me. Pay me!

 

Production and innovation would come to a grinding halt under Socialism. I work 40-45 hours a week because I have seen that it pays off. Am I going to become "rich" someday? No. I don't expect to. But under socialism, I'd sit on my a-- all day. It's human nature. I was unemployed for 11 months during the 2008 crash. I was getting unemployment checks, and coupled with my wife's job, we were doing fine. Obama extended unemployment to two years at that time. For the first 2-3 months I was a nervous wreck. Looking all over for work. But the longer I sucked on the government t**, the more content I became, until when I was offered a job, I almost didn't take it because, "I'm getting by. Why do I need to work? I've got 4 level 80 Warcraft characters!"

People look at these super rich people and want to complain that they rig the game. People can't become rich. And for the most part, they're right. But they CAN improve their life. They CAN have more than they currently do. A rich person wants to get richer. If you provide something a rich person thinks will make him more money, he'll pay you more. People want to blame "The Mans" greed as the reason they can't get ahead in life. It's actually that same greed that will propel you up. Maybe not in the leaps and bounds you think you "deserve," but incrementally, it will.

If you institute socialism, eventually the rich and powerful will stop working and producing because why work when they are being taxed 60-70%. Why watch that money go to a bunch of people who just quit in life? When they aren't producing, they aren't making money. When they aren't making money, where will the taxes come from?

Helljumper - You spoke about a House of Cards. Socialism is that house because it vilifies and abuses the very people it needs to stay afloat, the rich. Take away the motivation to produce at a high level, what will happen to our country?

 

I don't understand the point of the question. Could they be happier? Yeah, and the sun could be brighter, water could conceivably be wetter. But what we know to be a fact is that they are the happiest nations on Earth and they are Democratic Socialist. We could conceivably be happier in the US with the way things are right now, but we aren't because the way we have been doing things is not translating to the population being as happy as Scandinavian countries. I'm sure there are lots of factors at play as to why, but you can't ignore the Socialist aspect of it.

The problem is that people in the US are believing a false narrative.

It's not like the US is Democratic Capitalist and these Scandinavian countries are doing something radical. The truth is that we, and every other successful and relatively "free" country in the modern world combines Democracy and Socialism. You pay for roads with your taxes whether you have a car or not. You pay for the Fire Department through your taxes whether your particular house is on fire or not. You pay for the police to keep you safe even if you've never called them yourself. You pay for sidewalks of streets you personally have never walked down. Forest services maintain nature whether you want to go to that particular forest of not. Etc... etc... These are not radical ideas, they are an expression of a civilized society where people contribute to the whole in order to promote the well being of their environment. You already live in a society and country where socialistic policies are the norm. You probably don't even think about it or realize what they on a daily basis because they are such an intrinsic part of your life, and they are, for the most part, very good. They work for making you and your family have a healthier happier life. Democracy and Socialism together work.

This idea that Capitalism is the correct way to have a moral society, to the exclusion of other mechanisms, is also incorrect. Capitalism does not work on it's own. People want to laugh at the failures of Communism, but fail to realize there is not now, nor has there ever been a successful, exclusively Capitalistic society. Not once..... Ever! There are always a mix of Socialist, Capitalist, Democratic, and even sometimes Monarchic ideals and systems in play in every successful society around the world throughout history. This is because we as a species are both an individual and a part of the collective. We live in societies together. We gather for protection and work together to promote the betterment of us all because millions of years of evolution proves that works. Capitalism addresses one aspect of who we are, in allowing us to work harder to be individually successful... Socialism works to address the other aspect of who we are, a part of the collective of society that gathers together because you are stronger as a group supporting one another. Just as Communism is going too far in only addressing the whole, and neglecting the individual, Capitalism to the exclusion of Socialism, goes too far in addressing the individual and not the whole that the individual is a part of.

As I said, the US already uses Socialist policies right now, but things are not working. Well notice that the places where people are happiest and things are working a bit better than in the US, are just a little bit more Socialist. No, they aren't giving over their whole check to taxes as some of these conservative capitalist websites would imply. They aren't in a position where they can't improve their lot in life.

Spoiler: As exampled by what I posted above

In reality, however, Nordic nations have produced what is, by any metric, an impressive output of successful entrepreneurs, international businesses, and brands. Sweden has Ikea, H&M, Spotify, and Volvo, to name a few. From Denmark have come Lego, Carlsberg, and one of the world’s largest pharmaceutical companies, Novo Nordisk. A Swede and a Dane co-founded the video calling service Skype. The core programming code of Linux—the leading operating system running on the world’s servers and supercomputers—was developed by a Finn. The Finnish company Nokia was the world’s largest mobile phone maker for more than a decade. And newer players like Finland’s Supercell and Rovio, creators of the ubiquitous video games Clash of Clans and Angry Birds, or Sweden’s Mojang, the publisher of the equally popular video game Minecraft, are changing the face of online gaming. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-nordic-countries/473385/

They give just a little bit more to the Socialist programs, and they as individuals reap the rewards, just as you or I reap the rewards of having a police force, fire department, road and forest services. Adding Schooling and medical services is not this huge Socialist leap some people would have you believe.

 

We are already partially Socialist as my post above explains.

Taking any economic system too far doesn't work, but we aren't far enough Socialist yet. Taht's why the 1% controls all the money.

 

Those examples are not the same. I'm not asking for an impossible thing to become true. I'm not asking for you or anyone to brighten the sun. I'm asking simply if these people could be happier than they are? I certainly could be happier than I am. Maybe they could be to? Measuring someone's happiness is just a strange metric to me that I don't really buy into. If you ask a third world child if they're happy, some of them will undoubtedly be happy. They have a bit of food, some clothes, and good friends. See what I'm saying? Maybe the Nords could be happier if things weren't the way they are, but they wouldn't really know. I wouldn't really know. Maybe things would be so tremendously wonderful under Socialism, but I wouldn't know because we don't live in Sweden. Maybe things would be happier in North Korea or Cuba where the government tells me what to think or how to feel unburdening me of such heavy thoughts. I honestly have no idea. It's a strange metric to me.

I don't think so. I think the problem is there's a difference in what you and I believe. I'm not worked about it, it's okay to disagree about stuff.

I do not disagree with this. We've had a lot of Socialist programs that have done well. We also have a bunch that have sucked or do not operate as well as they should. Social Security and Medicare is about to cost more than we can afford. The US postal service stinks compared to private companies. I do like the Fire and Police services, although through our other discussions I'm surprised you used this as a point.

If the Police are as corrupt as you believe them to be, do we need more programs with the ability to fall into that corruption? I believe there's a lot of corruption in a lot of those positions by the way. Not even nefarious corruption, just corruptions of the process. Getting hired as a fireman is almost completely political these days.

I don't believe in complete Capitalism. I've taken enough business classes to know there's room for regulation and government intervention without overstepping those boundaries. I believe the government is here to do our bidding, not to provide everything for us. It behooves us as a nation to hold our own power in our hands. I trust my own judgement better than the collective of our government.

For someone so adamant about corruption in a system like the police I'm honestly surprised to see you so adamant about giving more programs to the government where more situations like that can occur. I'd prefer to trust my own hands than someone else's.

If I wanted to live in a country where the government controlled that much of what I get/don't get/pay/don't pay then I'd honestly just move there. Here I want to feel like I can work my butt off to get my family in a better place than me financially and set them up for the future. I don't want to set my kids up to take care of someone else's kids and I can't take care of my kids the way I want to if I'm paying for someone else's kids.

 

I don't understand what you're looking for here. It's simple to me. People were asked if they were happy with certain aspects of living in their country. They either said yes or no. I don't know how else you can measure if someone is happy than just asking them, and this idea that they could be happier if some non specific change happened doesn't make sense to me. The reality is, this is the best we got in the world.

I don't disagree with the police as a concept like trodgers does. The concept of the police is a wonderful thing. Anything can be corrupted if people in power do and think the wrong things. That's why some police departments are great, and others are terrible. There isn't a magic button to fix problems like this and I don't think there should be. The problem isn't the mechanism of the police, but the beliefs and actions of the people within. That gets changed through changing hearts and minds, not legislature or policy IMO.

I agree. I just think we need to go a little more towards the Socialist side. We are too Capitalistic right now leading to 1% controlling all the wealth, not through hard work and fair play but through manipulation of capitalistic mechanisms of the economy.

I'm not in favor of big government, I'm in favor of smart government. We waste our tax money giving it to corporations and policies that are a waste and benefit a very select few. I'd rather it go to something to better our society.

You already live there, it's just incremental rather than an up front program you can pin it on like universal Medical coverage. People can move up in a more Socialistic society just like you can here. The narrative about what it would be like if we became more socialist is an exaggeration based on an extreme vision, not the reality of what we've seen it actually look like.

 

Actually it's based on the evidence of people who are on government welfare right now that have no desire to work and are content letting the government pay for their lives. @Savory Griddles used himself as an example not too long ago. I have family members that are unemployed doing the same thing. THAT is where the fear comes from. Not to mention various failed governments and whatnot.

My point is I don't buy this question. Like I said: if I ask someone in a third world country if they're happy and they are, does that make their situation better than ours? No. It's all about context and I just don't think it's a viable metric for determining anything. Two people in the same situation could give different answers just based on their personality. If you asked Steve Jobs if he's happy, he might say no. If you asked Bill Gates, Bill might say yes.

There's ways to fix that which aren't Socialism. There's ways to pick up the economy that don't rely on me paying more in taxes for things I don't think will run as efficiently as they should.

 

I'm just talking generally with that type of poll or question. If you ask anyone if they're happy, it's almost completely based off their personality instead of their reality. A Buddhist monk could be the happiest man on Earth living in poverty up in the Tibetan mountains. The richest men on the planet could be the most unhappy dealing with the burdens that money brings. I know I'd be happier with more money, but some people won't be. It's all insanely subjective so I don't know really what to make of a question like that.

 

Have you actually been on welfare? It is not easy. I have no idea what your family members are doing, but you are not allowed to just sit around all day in any state I've heard of. At least not since Bill Clinton changed the rules:

"
Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false.

Most benefit programs require recipients to work in order to collect. Take Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), for example. Single parents receiving this grant must work at least 30 hours per week in order to be eligible, and two-parent families must work between 35 and 50 hours a week.

The fact is, blue-collar wages in America are simply not high enough to support workers in today’s economy. The wages paid by many large employers are so low that their full-time employees are eligible for welfare.

You heard that right: People are working full-time to support their families, paying their fair share of taxes, but are so underpaid that they can’t get by without relying on government assistance.

This is partly due to the disturbing fact that the federal minimum wage has not been increased in over five years (despite the incessantly rising cost of living in our country) and partly due to voracious corporate greed.

And furthermore, half of all food stamp recipients are children. More than 82% of all food stamp money goes to households that include children, elderly people, or people with disabilities.These are people who legally or physically cannot work and live at the mercy of the system.

So where are all of these able-bodied lazy adults who are luxuriating off of their benefits? They are a fabrication.

Most people on welfare are hardworking, taxpaying citizens, just like the rest of us. Or they are impoverished children, elders, or folks with disabilities.

But it’s a lot easier for welfare critics to take help away from people that they imagine are lazy and deceitful, so that false image lives on."

http://groundswell.org/7-lies-about-welfare-that-many-people-believe-are-fact/

These polls aren't asking a few people, they're asking thousands. What you're describing is a factor only if you don't ask many people. Then the variables of a small sample size come into play. Thousands of people on average can discern if they are happy about their life or not. The questions of what if XYZ happened, would they be happier are immetrial to me. The facts are Scandinavians feel they're happier than people in the US do.

I just disagree. The way the economy is structure towards Capitalism is the problem.

 

Honestly, we probably shouldn't be having this huge debate in here. We're probably throwing the thread too far off topic.

I'll let you say the last thing on this real

 

you should work with my clients. Your opinion would change FAST.

I'm not saying all are lazy. I'm not saying the majority are lazy. I'm saying a large number of people in this country are milking the system and change is needed.

According to Obama, the economy is strong and we're doing great. You have to ignore the stats of government aid, welfare, % living in poverty, etc when listening to him tell that bold faced lie.

So, having said the above, I want to make it clear -- I don't want kids to go hungry. I don't want people homeless. I do want accountability -- government officials and those receiving help. And the amount we pay in taxes is ENOUGH to ensure all of this. Asking me to pay more is the wrong question.

Like Real, I want to work my butt off for my family. There is nothing wrong with that. It's not greed to want to keep what you earned. It's greed to try and take from me what you didn't earn (not you Barns, but the government who thinks raising taxes is the answer, knowing full well they're gonna line their pockets) and keep people dependent on the government.

 

I don't think the majority are lazy. They just don't have a way out.

You are raised by people with low education, you go to a crappy school with low standards, you try to work, but your work ethic is terrible because that is something you never learned because no one taught you at that critical age, but somehow you're supposed to just make it out of poverty and figure everything out to fix your life. I don't buy that that's possible for most people.

They're doing the best that they can, and the system is built to keep them down in a lot of ways.

But again, we should probably make another thread for this convo

 

So Trump is all for waterboarding, and he'd do a lot more than that if they could change the laws on these things to get info from people. Hooray for torture! Am I wrong in thinking saying stuff like this will probably get him MORE votes? I'm legitimately scared, we have a madman running for president and nobody is trying to stop it. I just happened to pass by Fox News earlier today and stop on Bill O'Reilly, and when even he and that network aren't exactly jumping on and supporting Trump's words, you know you've got a guy who is pretty out there.

 

^^^^ Fox doesn't like Trump. Part of that is the Megan Kelly thing (she's one of their bright stars) and Fox is GOP establishment. Trump is not.

 

Yeah, but O'Reilly is an extreme nut job so I figured he'd stand by or support those like himself just because. I'm not for torture that's all I know, I thought we'd finally moved beyond that the last couple centuries.

 

OReilly gets on Trump pretty good. He told him one time "well, you know you're too thin skinned for me." LOL. Trump took it because he likes O'Reilly, but if that was Megan. He'd flip out.... again .