Star Wars Thread (a Galaxy Far Far Away) Obi-Wan Movie In The Works! (36)

^LOL, Barns.

 

Blasphemy. It has no flaws!

 

Saw it with the new Dolby system and it was fantastic. Sharpest image I've ever seen in a theater and the sound was brilliant.

 

No I actually saw it at El Capitan in Hollywood. I hadn't been in a while and they upgraded their stuff. It was great.

 

HJ, thank you for at least acknowledging my theory on some of Anakin's line delivery and mannerisms and not writing me off as nuts. I'm not saying that it worked and excuses the bad acting, I'm saying I believe strongly that's what they were going for and it explains a lot. Same with extremely whiny Anakin, it was designed to make you see him as Luke's father, but no, it doesn't work, it's awful. Also, I didn't say 3 was better than 7, I said my current personal preference if I'm sitting down to watch these movies is 3 a little bit over 7. But I even ranked them as 3/6/7 rather than using a ">" meaning they are interchangeable depending on the day and my mood. I even said that 7 is unquestionably a better film than 3. The second part of your post I agree with in large part, that was very well said.

 

You've got to have an open mind about this and watch 3 with it in your mind, and then at least 4 or 5 for comparison. You have to see a line like Anakin saying to Padme "DON'T ask me to do that!" while sternly pointing at her with his black gloved hand and compare it to lines and mannerisms of Vader like "Don't fail me again!", or even "No disintegrations". Even look at bad lines and try and picture Vader in costume saying them in his voice, like Anakin and Obi-Wan's surf battle where Anakin goes "This is the end for you my master". There's another like Vader says in either 5 or 6 to the Emperor that very much reminded me of lines right after Anakin's turn in 3. Where he go goes "Thank you, my master", and then asks a few lines later "what about the other Jedi spread across the galaxy?". It's a very, very odd delivery, and I don't think it's all on Hayden, I really believe it's meant to be him now speaking as Vader. Another example might be Anakin telling Obi-Wan "you underestimate my POWER!", compared with Vader's "you are unwise to lower your DEFENSES!", picture Anakin's line said in JEJ's voice under that mask. I could go on, but I'm just citing examples here and there.

I realize there is so much hate for Hayden and his performance here and everywhere that people refuse to look for these things, but have an open mind is all I'm saying. I think it's clear that Lucas was TRYING with Anakin in 3 to make it believable that he is the same man in that Vader suit in the other movies, because if he doesn't, it's not believable. Just watch an OT movie and one time try to pretend/picture that is Hayden under that mask delivering those lines and the similarities to how he spoke in the prequels is there. It can be hard to picture because James Earl Jones is so awesome, and for some reason Vader speaks with a semi-British accent a lot of times, but it's there. I'm not trying to make excuses that it makes up for bad acting because there is plenty, but I genuinely think this is what Lucas was going for and it didn't work and people didn't see it. Hayden isn't a great actor, but he isn't as "wooden" in anything else I've seen him in as this and I don't think that's an accident.

Last thing sort of relates, so many people hate Hayden being inserted at the end of ROTJ as the force ghost, absolutely hate it, but I just don't. Doesn't bother me. That was the last time he was good, and there never existed an old man version of Anakin not all burned and scarred and with his hair, only the young man. I hate so many of Lucas' changes to the OT, especially some new ones with the Blu-Rays, but this isn't one. I actually connect more with seeing the Hayden ghost because it brings connects the whole saga in a way, and that's the good Anakin I knew. I think with that particular change people hate it because it isn't what they grew up with and they hate Hayden, but I dunno, it works for me.

 

The reason I hate it is a Star Wars trivia fact: The man who originally was cast as Vader was Sebastian Shaw. He was cast as Darth and filmed the entire first movie thinking it was his voice that would be used as Darth Vader. When you watch A New Hope, all those actions are 100% him believing he is Vader. It was in post production that they added James Earl Jones who is now synonymous with the role. Shaw didn't know he was replaced until he went to the premiere of the movie.

Shaw was brought back for one scene in Episode 6 where Vader's mask is removed. Shaw is a scarred up, dying, husk of a man who has one final emotional moment with his son. Then at the very end he's given peace as a Force ghost. It's a show of good faith for both Shaw and the fictitious character he plays.

Then in 2004 he's replaced by another actor, this time a kid who is most hated for his part in the role of a young Vader. So now Sebastian Shaw has been replaced TWICE as Darth Vader.

Cold blooded move by George Lucas.

 

Actually David Prowse plays Vader in all 3 movies. Prowse was the one told all that and then replaced by JEJ. Then Prowse was fold that finally at the end of ROTJ when Vader's mask is removed he would finally be seen and heard, and instead they replaced him with Shaw. So I suppose it's a cold blooded move on Prowse, but not Shaw had one scene in all of the OT movies and then he gets to become the force ghost. I felt no connection to him as Anakin or as that force ghost version whatsoever. Just a hired actor for one scene.

I'm not really bothered by any of this, for me it's whatever makes the movie make most sense or fits best. And for me, for connecting the prequels in the end, again only for me personally, Hayden works fine, if not even better. It's only one shot, it doesn't ruin anything, and it just makes sense to me. And that's in the end what I'm saying, nobody ever tells me they hate it for story reasons. They say they hate it become it's not what they grew up with or because they hate Hayden's face and/or the prequels, and I think that's unfair. It's like the change in Empire from that original guy who played the emperor talking to Vader to the Emperor we know from the prequels and ROTJ, I line the change, it works.

 

My bad I get those two mixed up, but you get the point. Cold blooded move. What good does that serve the franchise? To me it was uncool. It would be the same as cutting out anyone from those older movies. Like most of the adjustments made in the 2004 "remastered" editions, it's just flat out unnecessary. Why not go back and CGI an older Ewan McGregor over the face of Alec Guiness? It'd be more accurate. People grow older and change and instead of giving Shaw his moment, you take him out in favor of the younger actor who had 2 movies to get his part into the series? It's unnecessary.

It's as unnecessary as the music number added in RotJ or Greedo shooting first. Why do it? What does it add to the experience?

 

I've already explained what I felt adding Hayden added to the experience. I also thought I explained why the others didn't get young, but if I didn't I will. I said it seems you become a force ghost at the time you last looked when you were on the light side. Obi-Wan and Yoda both died as still good Jedi, so that's how they look (unless you're saying go back and place Ewan's face on all of Guinness' scenes in every movie, which is just extreme and not even close to the same thing I'm saying, Guinness gave a wonderful performance). Again, the version of Shaw's Anakin we see never existed. Anakin was not unburned and scarred and didn't have hair since ROTS, the good Anakin looked like Hayden. But that's just my take, again we don't have to agree.

I absolutely agree with the other changes you mentioned though, greedo and Han shooting simultaneously (now) is idiotic, and the ROTJ musical number is so embarrassingly bad I have to fast-forward through it every time. These add nothing to the story while I feel Hayden ghost actually kind of did. There are actually some other changes Lucas made to the OT I don't mind or even like though, too. For example the backgrounds added while Han and Lando and co walk and talk through Cloud City. It used to be bare walls, Lucas added open windows to show us the city outside. No harm done, doesn't distract, lets you feel the environment a little more. But anyway, I think that's enough SW for me today, I know my opinions aren't popular, we can certainly get back to talking all things TFA and just enjoy SW being back.

 

I can never have enough Star Wars in a day.

I'm not trying to bash your Anakin fandom, I truly am not. I get what you're saying about the way he portrayed Vader and I'd have to watch it again to catch that. I have never put III's failings on Christensen (although I don't think he's a good actor). It was the fantastically bad writing that did those movies in. Well II he was pretty bad in, but so was everyone not named Ewan McGregor.

I get what you're saying about him being "good" so his Force ghost would appear as him when he was last "good". I get that within the film. I just think that sucks for an actor that had passed away and was part of the legacy of the films. It's just not cool. If you have to include Christensen, then as a Force ghost have him fade in and out between the two. He's a ghost right? Make him wispy and fade from one to the other. Sure he'll look different, but in reality he wasn't the steadfast Jedi that Yoda and Obi-Wan were. From outside the movie as just a personal thing I think it's messed up to cut an actor that made the final cut after he died. Seems mean and unnecessary. Hayden had his shot to impart himself on the legacy.

A better example: Max Von Sydow is Lor San Tekka in Episode 7. What if in one of the anthologies he's played by Michael Fassbender. Then retroactively, 10 years after Von Sydow passes away, they replace him in the movie with Fassbender? Just seems like a poor way to honor the memory.

As for the other stuff there was just a lot of frivolous stuff added in. Lizards here and there, the beak on the Sarlacc pit, the rocks around R2D2 when he's hiding on Tatooine. Why?... The scene where everyone is partying around the galaxy at the end of VI... Why?...

 

Lol, damn you for continuing to pull me back in. I wouldn't go as far as to call what I have Anakin fandom, lol, I just think he gets too much hate in 3. I've already said 1&2 are unwatchable movies. I actually kinda like your suggestion of having Anakin fade between the 2 force ghosts though, that's interesting.

As for your Von Sydow analogy, I appreciate it, it's a good point, but it still isn't the same thing to me. Sydow's character was him from the beginning, he IS the character, the actor, his face, that's him. Vader was behind a mask for 3 movies first, and Shaw got one scene with Luke for like 2 minutes, and then like a 10 second force ghost shot. It's not the same to me. Vader was Vader, Shaw was a hired actor for 1 1/2 scenes. Now had they actually used Prowse in ROTJ like they intended, and the man inside that Vader suit for 3 movies that brought that performance to life, and then replaced him later, I'd feel that it was a d*** move.

As for the other OT changes you listed, I agree, those are terrible. The stuff in ANH is the worst, the awful CGI lizards and creatures, the stupid droid taunting another droid so he smacks him down to the ground. It was clearly an attempt to make the OT LOOK more like the prequels and it was so unnecessary. Thank goodness they barely touched ESB with that stuff, and even took back out some stuff they had originally changed like Luke's emperor scream when he falls in cloud city.

And the partying around the galaxy at the end of ROTJ, such a poor attempt to connect the prequels. To show us Coruscant, Naboo, and Tatooine. Why the hell would Tatooine even care, weren't they so far from the Empire that it didn't even really matter to them? Also, I'm not super familiar with the EU, but wasn't the celebration on Coruscant kind of a contradiction of a lot of that? The Emperor was their ruler, the senate was disbanded, weren't they behind the guy? From what I remember the Empire didn't instantly die with the death of Palpatine, all the commanders, generals, admirals, stormtroopers, whatever, didn't suddenly surrender and bow to the band of Rebels.

Lastly, maybe my imagination, but it kinda felt a little like JJ had to throw in the "republic" being destroyed in TFA because of a that celebration scene. They wouldn't have had to be talked about as being sympathetic to the Resistance without us seeing them tearing down a statue of Saddam..er the Emperor at the end. The original celebration with just the Rebels and yes even the Ewoks was perfectly fine. That was the group that completed their mission, that's where they all were located at that time, so that's where they celebrated. What happened elsewhere was up to our imaginations and then the EU books.

Oh and now I am done for now, got some stuff to do and will be out and about for the rest of the day.

 

Well, I didn't say it wasn't a bad idea, only that it seems that's what they were going for. I agree that Anakin has all the qualities you listed, but I also think he absolutely was a hero, great pilot, and warrior. The other stuff, there has to be creepiness, darkness, something off there, or how is his turn to evil believable? I mean look at Anakin's life, it sucked. He wanted to be Jedi, but still human, save his mother, have a wife, stuff like that. The Jedi seemed to be so stuck in their ways that they were a big part of their own failings and downfall. Anakin went to them for help and all he got was told to forget people he cared about, let them go, but he was different, he said so himself.

I thought that was a big part of why Luke was so important. He was a mix of the old Jedi way and the new, he had mostly light, but some dark. He had those he loved and cared about and risked everything for, even when Yoda and Obi-Wan told him not to. He used his powers for good, but he also dressed in black and was the only Jedi I can recall using the force choke. But anyway, lol, I'm getting off on a tangent I'm not even sure I have a good conclusion to. Been so long since I've discussed SW like this I guess it's all coming out at once. For the record no one's personal opinions and disagreements with me on these movies bother me, and I hope nothing is coming across that way. They're movies, they're entertainment, it's all great fun.

 

I hear you. We're just not going to agree on the Force ghost thing, no worries. I like hearing opposing views on this stuff. Recently a guy on reddit told me his favorite Star Wars movie was Episode II. He was serious and he laid out why. I was totally shocked, but it made me happy that someone somewhere appreciate a chapter of Star Wars that I hate.

I thought George's heavy handed desire to justify his movies with that final partying scene was egregious. I thought that was the final straw for the fan base honestly. It doesn't even fit into their own canon as the comics kick off after the celebration on Endor. In the comic some worlds (I think even including Corusant?) do not even acknowledge that the Emperor is dead and play it off as Rebel propaganda. It was incredibly stupid and useless and it makes me angry thinking about it.