33 Cops Fired 600 Bullets Despite Knowing A Hostage Was Inside The Car

Why is the chief even trying to defend their actions? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

Stockton PD is where I'm working and where I've lived all my life. I suppose allowing the bank robbers to unload on police and innocent bystanders was a better alternative...

 

Pull the squad cars back and track the robbers and hostage from the air. They were shooting at the cops. Not the innocent bystanders.

Critical thinking skills need to be employed when a hostage is being held and the captors are armed.

 

Stockton PD reminds me of SOA

 

Yes. He was shooting at the cops. But where his bullets ended up is another story.

Your pulling back is a common idea by most civilians. It's easy to play hindsight. But had we done that, they could've easily just killed the hostage and dumped her on the road. The two previous hostages in the SUV were shot and dumped, but luckily weren't killed.

These guys were out for blood either way. It could've ended much worse. Proper action was taken. It ended in tragedy sadly, but taking them out was the right thing to do.

 

LMAO!!!! they were shooting at Unser

 

So far, your excuses for the Stockton PD are.

A) Innocent bystanders and cops were in danger.

B) The previous hostages were being dumped anyway. They'd probably dump the last hostage. She has a better chance surviving 600 stray bullets than an execution style bullet to the head by her captors.

A) doesn't make sense to me since

1) The cops could pull back and avoid being shot at

2) Innocent bystanders are just as much in danger of being shot by 600 bullets fired by police that ricochet off the car and the pavement.

3) There's a chance the robbers stop firing bullets once the squad cars back off. Which would alleviate any threat to innocent bystanders.

B) also doesn't make logical sense.

1) If the robbers kill their last hostage, they'd have no more leverage.

2) Also, as you mentioned, the previous hostages were not killed by the captors. If the captors really wanted to shoot them execution style, they'd be dead.

Another question. If the President of the United States was a hostage taken by those robbers, do you think the Stockton PD would have fired 600 bullets at the car? Would the Stockton PD chief even try to defend their actions? I sincerely doubt it.

 

Hindsight is an amazing thing isn't it? I won't bother to type anything up right now, I'm typing on my phone and it sucks. But your "logic" is more like fantasy my friend. The event that took place was nearly 45 minutes and the police just didn't resort to deadly force right away. But I'll comment later.

 

This isn't about hindsight.

This is about an innocent woman shot to death and how it can be avoided.

If the Stockton police department thinks that saving an innocent hostage is a "fantasy", then perhaps change is necessary.

I'll be awaiting your explanations.

 

No it's not, but your alternative approaches to the situation is in fact hindsight. There is a lot of "could of, should have, etc.."

And this is indeed about a innocent woman being killed, it's a tragedy. I'm not trying to obscure the fact she was killed by our own men. It's a tragedy, unfortunately tragedy happens. It's unpredictable.

Your assumptions about the mindset of the three armed men is a fantasy. You've stated that had we backed off, they would cease firing and go away. Your lack of care for the safety of the officers and innocent bystanders is alarming. You're assuming they would've just calmed down and the collateral damage would've been less severe. You've stated that them killing the last hostage would've lost them leverage.. What leverage are you referring to? If leverage was their goal, they would have kept all three rather than attempting to kill two and dumping them.

I'm curious, for the sake of debate; lets say we back off. We monitor them with a helicopter (which arrived rather late... CHP is the nearest agency with a chopper). And the Chopper sees the three hostages thrown out... dead shot execution style. One, or two, or all three. How would you respond? You'd be saying the exact opposite. "They should have pursued, they should have just killed them, etc..."

Stockton PD exhausted different methods. Negotiator was on his way, the armed men just took the hostages and fled in the SUV. The officers pursued, (just pursued) and they began to unload AK rounds into the patrol cars. They backed off. They continued to unload. Chopper didn't arrive until the end of the whole incident. We would've lost them. And you know the ending.

I'm not trying to make excuses, there should be some sort of compensation for the family, there should. I'm not against that at all. I guess what I'm trying to get at is, don't be so easy and quick to criticize the police. When AK rounds start flying towards your head, survival instincts kick in and training kicks in. The officers were within policy, they did follow policy. Both local and state policies. It just ended tragically. And this event has led to some more training when it involves hostages, but you can never be prepared for the unpredictable actions of someone.

 

I just got back from stockton yesterday. Not as bad as everyone made it out to be...Anyway, I don't think anyone is defending the bank robbers but merely questioning the excessiveness of 600 rounds and shooting while an innocent person is being held hostage. Im pretty sure thats not the way things are done. That being said, Im not putting my life on the line at work so I don't want to judge.....But from where Im sitting, this is wrong on many levels.

 

I'm not a cop, nor do I claim to know much about procedures...But the few hostage situations i've seen in person in nearby areas, the police wait it out until something gives. You don't aggravate them and you don't push them to do something out of panic. 600 rounds is out of control. Thats 60 mags assuming they are 10 round clips. The stockton police are VERY lucky they didn't kill innocent people with that many rounds being fired.

 

You're right. That's usually how hostage situations play out. This wasn't your typical hostage situation, they were unloading AK rounds towards the police. They were in a fleeing vehicle. They continuously fired AK rounds throughout the 45 minute incident. You just can't let that go. From a citizen standpoint, it is awful. Legally, it was sound. From my standpoint, they reacted properly. Unfortunately, bullets hit the hostage. The PD as a whole will be punished. They will most likely be paying a large sum to the family. I just don't like the criticism we get. Average citizens like to talk and debate as if they knew the job inside and out, they knew all of california and Stockton PD Policies regarding hostage situations. When bullets are flying your way, it's a whole different ball game.

 

I suppose since we are not all alike, situations are looked at differently. That being said, it's a tragedy. The police have been super transparent with everything, they've cooperated with the family. I'm glad they've decided to do that, any other way would just give people the right to be even more outraged. ( And I wouldn't blame em.)

 

If the police are going to come up with an improved policy for handling a hostage crisis, questions like "could have, should have, etc.." will need to be asked.

Tragedies do happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask questions.

The police chief himself made it clear that the gunmen were targeting police officers. With no police officers in sight, who are these gunmen going to shoot at? Logic dictates that they would cease firing.

On the contrary, I do care. That's why I'm suggesting alternatives to firing 600 rounds of ammunition. Ricochet bullets are a danger to officers and bystanders.

Sure. Less bullets flying from cops and robbers would logically lead to less collateral damage. There's also a chance that the robbers drive slower with less police chasing them from the ground.

Technically, they only really need one hostage for leverage.

I'm also skeptical that they attempted to kill the other two. If they wanted the other two dead, they would have been shot execution style and neither would have survived.

First of all, assuming your scenario is true, what I'd be saying is "shoot the driver, shoot the tires, stop the car". Not "Fire 600 bullets at the vehicle, don't a give a damn where you shoot". The hostage would have to survive a possible car crash instead of a possible execution sytle hit by her captors, or 600 bullets from police.

2nd of all, I'm not sure a CHP pilot can tell if a dumped hostage is wounded or dead from that high in the air.

In any case, you've yet to give any logical excuse for firing 600 bullets at the vehicle.

They backed off and the robbers kept shooting? How would they know this?

If the cops really "backed off" as you say, how would they know that the robbers were still firing bullets? As you've said, there was no chopper in the air giving them any information from above.

Excuse me, If I'm a bit skeptical about this allegation.

I'm sorry to hear about the chopper arriving late. That puts the police in a delicate position. But it goes to my original point. The police chief claiming that "we did everything we could" isn't exactly true. If the chopper arrived sooner, it could have possibly helped the situation.

If the police chief said, "We and the CHP could have done a better job coordinating our efforts", I'd have more respect for him and the department. Admit that you could have done better. Make an honest effort to improve.

I can understand survival instincts.

Training and policy is what I'm concerned about. Are police trained to fire 600 bullets at a vehicle with a hostage inside? If so, then that kind of training and policy needs to be questioned and changed.

Ultimately, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I can bring in a scholar on law enforcement to debate with you. You'll continuously find holes in any type of logic. But we joined knowing what kind of criticism we'd be getting. You have your way of thinking and I have mine. They followed everything in the books. And I mean everything. What more can you ask for when dealing with such an intense and horrifying situation? 600 bullets, 20 bullets, 10 bullets. No matter how many bullets, if the hostage dies, it's going to bring about questions and criticism.

 

this is why guns should not be sold in america