Gender Equality Thread

This is my first "actual" post on this website, and it's only appropriate because this is my passion (other than the Lakers, of course )

Before I give any opinions, let me start with this music video that is actually where I got my avatar from:



Can't nobody be free unless we're all free. There's no me and no you, it's just US.

The reason that I start with this, other than the fact that Brother Ali is awesome and it's a great song, is that today, "FEMINISM" is supposedly the movement for the equality of the sexes, but for some darn reason, men just have a hard time joining this movement and attaching the label to themselves.

Contrary to what the word may sound like, the movement is about both women AND men. This is why I dislike the word "feminism". It is a word describing only half the population, yet attempts to describe and help the whole population. I will never identify as a feminist, but that doesn't mean I can't be an advocate for gender fairness.

Regardless of semantics, if there is one thing I can accomplish with this thread, it would be to have everyone on this forum realize that this gender fairness movement is about them, too. As a male, the biggest problem I have with masculinity is the notion that it is inherently tied to violence. Of course, not everyone thinks this, and I certainly don't, but many people still think that being a man means you need to show physical strength, whether it be for aggressive or defensive purposes.

GUIDELINES FOR THIS THREAD:

1. This is a very touchy subject, re-read your post before you submit it!
2. Don't generalize people or invalidate a person's experience!
3. This is a peaceful discussion, not an aggressive argument!
4. Personal stories are encouraged!
5. We're all in this struggle for peace together, never forget that!

 

That's a very interesting point you raise. While a man usually pursues a woman, a woman shouldn't feel any pressure to not pursue a man simply because it's against societal norms. This has been frustrating in my own life. There was this girl I was hanging out with, and I knew she was into me, and we would be cuddling, inches away from each others' face not saying a word, just waiting for the other to make a move. I actually made it a goal to not make the first sexual move, and she just would not do it. Why? I have nooooo idea. It shouldn't be a man's responsibility to pursue a woman, even if men are more sexually aggressive.

 

Lots of women pursue men or take the initiative, it's not a novel concept. And lots of guys or gals have no problem making the first mini or overt sexual move. Isn't it more a question of self confidence, rather than to make it into an issue of "gender fairness". Just my initial knee jerk response to the situation you mentioned and I have no deep thoughts on this. That term though to me, in that situation is similar to me to someone saying they are "reaching out to" rather than simply "calling","emailing" or "texting" someone....and a little too "touchy feely". Certainly not everyone feels as I do, please don't take offense. As well, why would "that" situation fall under Politics and Religion requiring "gender fairness" discussion? More like in that case a more simple and less daunting discussion of "dating" experience, and what others might share.


It was late last night when I wrote this. I changed the wording several times with edits, and now this morning I'm still not happy with it. Again please do not take offense I really mean none and clearly the OP's heart and intent are in a good place. I would only suggest to try not to complicate the relationships between males and females to a level where they do not need to be, and look for simpler feedback and discussion as to any of the multitudes of types of interaction they share in specific types of situations as opposed to searching for overall "codes to live by" in a macro sense if not required. If that makes any sense. I'm trying.

 

Should women and men be treated as equal humans? Of course, but that does no make men or women equal, simple for the fact women can have babies, men can't. All things being equal men don't have breast, woman do. I think you all get the point. There are varying differences between male and female, and because of that we should be treated the same just as you would treat your children the same based upon their differences, physiological make, and emotional make up. Men and Women don't act the same generally speaking, which is why words like masculine and femenine were used to describe the attributes of men and women. This whole idea that Blacks, Whites, Men, Woman, Boy, Girl are all the same, only mutes individuality and uniqueness. All things being equal women are not physically as strong as men, their bodies aren't made the same way, which is why if you take a man and a woman the same height and they became body builders, because of the mans make up he could out lift her, and his body mass would be bigger than hers. This is not to say that a woman can't be stronger than a man physically there are some that are. The problem with feminism is it doesn't attempt to unite, it attempts to divide is says, recognize me for my differences but treat me as your equal, if I can't perform at your level it's because I'm a woman but still treat as the equal of some that out performs me.

This is not a debate about should a woman be payed as much as a man in the work force because woman should be payed equally provided they perform the same task equally. Men who don't perform as men don't get payed equally so why should a woman who doesn't perform as well as there counter part expect the same. Just as man shouldn't expect to get payed more than a woman just because he is man.

I think what we all want is for others to recognize our individuality and respect us for that and treat with dignity. That should be the goal not lump everyone in the same pile and say we're all the same. All of us have an important part to play,

 

Gender equality isnt a problem in the US, we are one of the or THE most feminist countries out there and its only going to improve.


But this in itself creates a double standard. True equality would be hard to reach, regarding courtship, physical altercation, and sexual harassment.

it gets way too political. we just need to accept the differences. The thought of integrating men and women into contact pro sports is just mind-blowing and its going to cause more headaches then good. Women in the NFL? NBA? not to mention all the bones they'll be breaking, but all the sexual harassment suits? what if one player accidentally taps them on the butt for a good job (which they do to a lot of teammates) or what if one gets a stiff one after getting posted up? Elbowing the breast, because those sneaky elbows are still part of the game.

sometimes i believe it just goes unreasonably far just to prove a point, and thats where it discredits their motives. And yes i believe strong feminists tend to divide then unite.

Especially in the work place, men (and i can guess women too) are naturally programmed to want women. Its going to create unintentional tensions, and possibly even competition against men. (and vice versa)

thats always going to be there, its learning to accept these things, rather then not acknowledging them.

 

I will expound on this in greater later, but the simple truth is women are more or less still viewed as property in many ways in our culture, and we spend a lot of time addressing the symptoms of the problem and not the actual issue.

 

That's why, as Roo wisely informed me, gender "fairness" might be a more proper term. Equality doesn't get confused with "exactly the same"... It IS exactly the same. I've already shifted my day-to-day dialogue to saying fairness instead of equality. Maybe equal rights, but not equal.

 

how is it strange? dont you see butt taps all the time in NBA games? I'm just saying if the NBA was going to integrate men and women (which has been discussed) these scenarios wouldnt be strange. getting posted up by a women, elbowing a women and it might hit their breast, hell taking a full on charge from someone thats shaq's size. and getting posted up, whether its involuntary or not, how is the female going to know? and if that female isnt a good person, she might just take advantage of it, especially if its going to give her more publicity.

I never said they can't play,I'm saying theres going to be all these implications if they do integrate the two genders in a sport.


One of these women (who doesnt have a good character obviously) are going to Cry wolf and say 'they're playing harder on me because of my gender', 'they're sexually harassing me'. these things are bound to happen, because it has it in the office, the military, etc etc.

I think somethings have to gender segregated. Maybe in the future it can, but as of right now it'll cause more headaches and problems then good.



I don't believe human reproduction is societal. Its natural, just like how other animals compete for their mates.


edit: i apologize if i come out a bit strong, i just like debating! not meaning to offend anyone

 

Integrating both genders into an aspect of life in which physical power is a necessary factor is just looney. Men will always be stronger than women. Something like basketball or football would never integrate women, men simply overpower them.

Something like the military is different, because men and women can have similar endurances, and the physical power that is necessary isn't muscle-fighting, it's gun-shooting.

I definitely think the sexes need to be segregated in some ways. Men and women are simply different. Segregating races is completely different, because there is no biological difference between a "black" person and a "white" person, other than outward appearance - unless they're the opposite sex. I don't even believe in multiple races, I only believe in one human race.

In places of intellectual competition, there shouldn't be any gender segregation. There are some physical things men will always be better at than women, because of our physical power. However, women have certain physical strengths as well, such as the power to give birth to a child. We just need to learn how to balance these physical powers between the two genders, and not discriminate intellectual power based off a gender.

 

No, that is endurance. I already said that endurance is a thing that women can be good at. What's your point? Men still do the same cross-fit games, except lift more weight. Endurance and strength are different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

The records should be no surprise. I don't understand if you're trying to say that women can be as physically strong as men? Because they can't - other than the strength of child birth. Again, endurance is different.

And I'm not saying every man is stronger than every woman. I'm just saying that an average man's capability for strength is greater than the average woman's. That's a fact. Then it becomes a matter of utilizing that capability. But in something like physical sports, that's the whole point - to use your physical capability. There are definitely some women that can be construction workers, miners, or firefighters, because they are in great shape. There are also definitely some men that can't do those things, because they are in bad shape. But in those workplaces, people aren't competing, they are working together. To have a job in which women must compete by using strength with men, such as sports, just doesn't make sense. There's a reason that in the cross-fit games, women compete against women and men compete against men.

The issue of earning money for these competitions is a completely different and viable topic as well...

 

I don't know how you came to those three possible conclusions for what I'm trying to say.

I didn't say women are bad firefighters. I said any man and any woman can be a bad firefighter. Any man and any woman can be a good one, it depends on their physical capability.

I will disagree with you when you say that women athletes are bigger and stronger than tons of male athletes.

http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results/london-2012/athletics/400m-m
http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results/london-2012/athletics/400m-w

These are the 400m times from the 2012 Olympics. In the final heat, the fastest woman, winning the gold medal, had a 49.55 time. In the final heat, the slowest man, getting last out of the 8 runners, had a 45.14 time.

This proves my statement that men have a higher capability for strength than women. Why don't we have women running in the same race as men? Because the fastest woman will never be as fast as the fastest man.

The conclusion that is most close to what I actually think that you came up with is "they are worse than every male who might compete". The strongest woman will never be as strong as the strongest man. If the strongest women were competing with men who didn't lift weights, then the women would certainly win. A woman who competes racing every day would beat a man who never runs. And that's why some women are more than capable to work certain physically demanding jobs. But when it comes to competition for physical strength, men will always win. I don't see what's wrong with that. That's biology. Again, I'm not saying that it's not possible for a woman to be stronger or faster than a man.