Goes to the argument on mental strength. When the largest and strongest athlete on the floor feels the need to flop and cheat in order to gain an advantage, then you know he is mentally weak. Kobe is known for exactly the opposite. It’s why you have players like JoaKim Noah saying “you’re still a b**** though” and nobody has anything but reverence for Kobe Also subjective, but very different types of leaders. One had supreme confidence and wanted the ball in his hands so he could shove it down your throat. The other hid behind the mask of “making the right play”
Good points. This actually ties into a section I'm working on about how LeBron actually doesn't make his teammates better. In fact I think he may make them worse. Consider what happened to Dwyane Wade, Tristan Thomspon, JR Smith, Kevin Love, etc. One year they were all essential pieces to a championship roster, the next year they suddenly became "trash"? Whereas with Kobe, every player he played with post Shaq besides Gasol and Ariza could not stay in the NBA for much longer after they left the Lakers. That includes Bynum, Walton, Fisher, Odom, Farmar, Vujacic, Mihm, Parker (lol), Radmonovic, Cook, etc... He made them look so much better than they were because of his gravity pulling defenders towards him, even when he didn't have the ball. In fact that ties into another argument I am planning to make. Nobody in the history of the NBA other than Shaq has seen the defensive attention Kobe has. He's the only player I've ever seen doubled on the weakside perimeter (i.e. when he doesn't even have the ball on the opposite side of the court). I look at the single coverage LeBron got in the C Bags series with smaller guys and only wish a team did that to Kobe. He would have lit them up for 60.
I’m with you on most of those except Fish. He was 4 years older than Kobe I think, but he still had useful years playing for OKC Always stayed in great shape and he was a solid locker room presence, but there is no doubt his best years were with the Lakers.
Fish was a weird case. He forced his way to OKC where he gave them a few useful minutes off the bench in the playoffs. And yes his age was the main reason he retired. But he wouldn't have started on any team in the NBA towards the end of his tenure with the Lakers. His defense was that bad. Kobe had to defend Rondo and Westbrook in the 2010 playoffs once he got his knee drained, and that's the reason we didn't get knocked out of the first round.
One thing to remember to mention (sorry I haven’t read the full thread to see if it’s already has been but) is that Lebron’s game is and has been predicated on driving to the basket, catching lobs, and fast break dunks, while Kobe’s game was predicated on primarily jump shots, so the field goal percentages are going to be skewed in favor of Lebron.
Ok man all I can say is this. What Kobe had to kick off the 2009 run was: Beat up Andrew Bynum (still a beast I know) couple blocks HUGE presence inside in his 29 mins. 14pts/8 reb Odom 11/8/3 guy (good defender) Fish 10/2/3 guy (a defensive hole but AS A VET pulled hustle plays like a guardian angel including timely 3's and hustle plays) Ariza 9/2/2 good defender let's not got crazy here, way overrated 3 pt shooter then at 32%. still good for the defense . Pau Gasol 20/10/3.5 FG%567 absolutely an underated defender. At least during the champ years in LA. Some moments in game 7 vs C Bags were historic. Dude defended when it was all on the line. He shut down the inside. Phil filled out the rest with a hodge-podge combo of reserves that somehow worked. System guys. That's why Phil will never change until someone proves him wrong. I don't count NYN against Phil. Melo is a Jonah. Of course these guys smoked Orlando but replace Artest with Ariza vs the C bags and it's the same team. Artest was clearly more aggressive and helped us cap off the C Bags (we all know how close that was credit to Artest/Vujacic) but these are not amazing teams minus Kobe.
These days, it’s hard to even suggest Kobe is better than LeBron. Almost get ridiculed when doing so. I do think LeBron’s stats are inflated in today’s game. I don’t have the advanced stats to back it up but I bet the pace of play is much faster (number of possessions/FGA per game) and the NBA has gone much smaller in recent years. The Cavs system was literally a LeBron shot or a pass to a teammate for a shot, so he always racks up assists. At the end of the day these arguments will go on forever. I’ll take prime Kobe over prime Bron any day of the week. Ask the next person and they’ll say LeBron. Neither one is the wrong answer.
GOAT discussions are truly fruitless, but can be entertaining. In the end, it’s highly subjective, and people rarely change their minds.
This was the main point I was trying to make in the Lebron thread about him “not having help” and the similarities between the 2018 Cavs and that 09 team. People here were highly overrating our team (even saying that without Kobe they would have still made the Finals and/or even won it all). To refer back to the OP’s post, if you put Lebron on that team, they don’t win back to back championships, put Kobe on the 2018 Cavs team and they win the championship, no doubt in my mind. I believe this for a couple of key reasons. 1) Kobe is a closer, Lebron needs a closer. The Cavs needed a closer on their team, which Lebron is not. You know Kobe would have closed the deal in Games 1 and 3. You just can’t get that close and lose. Having the closer mentality built into you is a big factor to greatness and winning. 2) Kobe instilled a mentality defensively that his teammates bought into. If you disregard the analytics and look at the eye test I would tell you that Kobe’s teammates played the best defense of their career (team and individual) while playing alongside him because of the standard he set for himself and them. I believe if Lebron had set that standard of hard nosed defense in exchange for his inflated stats and instilled that into his teammates while leading by example, they would have beaten the Warriors no question. The Warriors are good, but they are very beatable. And to be fair to Lebron, needing a closer doesn’t diminish your greatness, but it does effect you when you are trying to be compared to players that had it.
Good luck on your project. I also have Kobe above LeBron on my all time list. But I also have Magic above LeBron. Magic accomplished more in less time against MUCH stronger competition. However, LeBron is not finished yet. If he wins another ring with his third team and plays another few seasons at a high level and breaks Kareem’s record it will be hard to keep him out of the all time top 5.
These are great points, thanks! I am still digging through the evidence to show that Kobe is a better clutch player/closer. It's obvious to those who watched, but I feel like a majority of people who watched the NBA today have only seen Curry/Westbrook/Harden/James and judge Kobe off basketballreference.com No I'm not a YouTuber. But been around the online Laker communities for ages. Been pulling content from all over so maybe I've said something you recognized.
Why do you have Kobe over LeBron? Just curious I do have LeBron in the top 5. I put him over Magic just because of his dominance in his 15th season, moreso than Kobe (who spent almost all of it injured). But Kobe was very, very dominant in his 17th season, especially when he got to play in a non Triangle (and non 4 out 1 in offense that Mike Brown installed) offense, and it remains to be seen if LeBron can do that as well.
Pace is very true. This is a factor I have yet to explore in depth, but obviously it makes sense. Most people's counterargument to that would be that LeBron put up better stats than Kobe pre 2010. Back then the typical rebuttal was Kobe is more skilled on the perimeter and has a post game, but times have changed. I would definitely take prime Kobe, but there is also a good argument for prime LeBron. I 100% agree with you that neither is wrong. But most people think Kobe over LeBron is... to put it one way... blasphemous.
Yeah Kobe's team was not that impressive. Sans Pau, it was pretty much the same squad in 2006-2007. Not to s*** on any of those guys, but Odom was always f***ing inconsistent and a perpetual "borderline" allstar that never made the jump. Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Fisher etc were all matadors on defense. Floor spacing was terrible because only Fisher could really shoot from outside. But because of the insane level Kobe was playing at, and the amount of defensive attention he commanded even on the perimeter, he made everyone else look WAY better. People look back and overrate those Lakers teams a fair bit. Acting like Pau Gasol was some incredible player and Odom always was a 6th man of the year type guy. It's not at all true. I hate to take away from our own squad, but it's ridiculous to act like LeBron played with trash while Kobe was playing with a bunch of all stars. We all remember how frustrating Gasol was. The guy was a horrible primary option, never averaged more than 15 FGA a game even in Memphis where he got the ball whenever he wanted (also never won a playoff game either). Bynum was also was barely on the floor during both of our championship runs, and didn't even reach all-star status until Mike Brown idiotically designed our offense to feed him every time down (4 out 1 in, same thing they ran in San Antonio with Duncan and Robinson), and it resulted in us getting bounced out of the 2nd round. That left Ariza/Artest, and Fisher. Along with a bench that I won't even get into. The team played well because of Phil Jackson coaching and Kobe's skill level at the time. But if you had given Kobe guys like Wade and Bosh, or even a competent point guard like Irving and a big man who could actually do something as a primary option (Kevin Love), you would have seen much different results. You're going to see a lot of reasoning like this in the final article. I've actually compiled a lot of good info to show how LeBron's teams from 2007-2010 were not as bad as people made them out to be. They weren't amazing, but the system Brown (or rather Kuester) ran didn't require 4 other all stars. It's just that most people don't have the depth of understanding with respect to NBA offenses to see that right off the bat.
I think Kobe is the better individual player - and I think he's better on offense, defense, and in the clutch. I'm not sure he's a better basketball player, and depending upon your personal preferences, you might really prefer to play on a team with LeBron. That might make LeBron a better teammate. Complicating the issue is the fact that LeBron keeps bailing on his teammates to dash to new cities, but Kobe stayed with the same franchise forever. Forever. Any take on Kobe vs. LeBron has to include something by way of both objective and subjective evidence, but hopefully some of these things can be put into context to help the unbiased interpretation of them. So, here is a one-sided case for Kobe. Let me begin by saying that I don't think anyone who ever followed Kobe believes it's necessary to "make the case" that Kobe's in the conversation. It's painfully f***ing obvious how good he was. 1997 Kobe airballs to "lose" game 5. He finished 4-14 with 11 points. At least three were shots I want him to take, and he did. He was only 18 at the time, playing heavy minutes in the playoffs and accepting the challenge. Kobe never shied from the final shot. That's part of his greatness. 1999-2002 In the threepeat years, Kobe (age 21-23) averages 25 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, as the Lakers just dominate teams, even in the playoffs. Good teams, mind you: 50-win Portland, 52-win New Jersey, 53-win Phoenix, 55-win Sacramento, 56-win Indiana, 56-win Philadelphia, 58-win San Antonio (twice), 59-win Portland, and 61-win Sacramento. That's ten teams with at least 50 wins in a three-year span. And another team had 49 wins. Not bad. 2004 http://www.espn.com/nba/recap?gameId=240315013 This is the Kobe vs. T-Mac game where Kobe steps up to defend McGrady late in the game and shuts him down. At the time, T-Mac was in the midst of a two-season streak during which he averaged 30 PPG. Kobe not only puts the clamps on him, he also scores at a ridiculous clip. And the Lakers win. Which other big offense players take the challenge of guarding the opposing team's best player like Kobe did? 2006 Forget all the regular season heroics. Look at Kobe's numbers in the three games the Lakers lost to Phoenix in the playoffs: 46.1 minutes, 34.3 points, 6.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 56% FGs, 50% threes, 75% FTs. He didn't shoot below 50% in any of those three games, while the Lakers lost by a combined 56 points. The Suns were a 54-win team, and they went on to win their next playoff series, too. This was the Kobe-Odom-Smush Parker-Kwame Brown-Devean George team. Also playing heavy minutes: Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, and Luke Walton. 2007 Playoffs: Five games, 43 minutes per game, 33 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, and shooting 46% from the floor. The Lakers lost that series by 52 points overall. That was a 61-win team beating them. This was the Kobe-Smush-Odom-Walton-Bynum team with Mo Evans, Kwame, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf, and Brian Cook rounding out the top ten for minutes played. Here's Kobe's 31-9-7 game in a loss. 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1CxKf4PoJ0&t=70s There's a reason Kobe was the closer on the Olympic team. He was the best defender and the best closer on the team. He set the tone for that squad. 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlfQiKYVFqE There's a reason Kobe guarded Westbrook, who was slaughtering the Lakers. He was coming into game 5 with averages of 22 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists (vs. just 1.5 TOs), and shooting 55% from the floor, hitting both his 3 point attempts, getting 5.3 points per game from the line. Then in game 5, Westbrook went 4-13 with 8 TOs. Not the only time he did that to Westbrook, mind you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg-x9Z4h4U4 2010 Kobe did the same thing to Rajon Rondo in the finals. By the way, during this repeat, the Lakers beat the following 50-win teams: Oklahoma City 50, Boston 50 (and 12-4 in the playoffs up to the Finals), Houston 53, Utah 53, Denver 54, Phoenix 54, Orlando 59. Also, in the two seasons Kobe's teams lost in the Finals, they beat the following 50-win teams to get there: Denver 50, Utah 54, San Antonio 56, San Antonio 57, and Minnesota 58. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSyN2cmTHaw 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tfq3V6C5dA&t=119s There's a reason Kobe's defense bothered LeBron in the ASG in 2013. One of them responded to the challenge, and one didn't. Later, needing some Ws to make the playoffs, Kobe moves between facilitation and scoring, as the Lakers rattle off six wins in seven games (Kobe averages 29 points, 8 assist, 7 rebounds in this span at age 34), he drills two FTs with a torn Achilles (one of the greatest sports moments ever), and the inspired Lakers win two more without him to make the playoffs. Of course, the team sucks (as usual for Kobe's later career). Surprise, surprise, an ancient Steve Nash (38), an aging Pau Gasol (32), an aging Metta (33), an aging Antawn Jamison (36), an injured Dwight Howard (soft), and such NBA greats as Darius Morris, Earl Clark, and Andrew Goudelock couldn't beat the Spurs. 2014-2016 An aging and injured Bryant, with nearly the most mileage ever for an NBA player, does something to destroy a legacy. This period influences how many young fans will see Kobe - as a lesser-than version of Westbrook, Harden, and the like. Kobe has always worked harder than everyone else, but it becomes clear he hasn't worked smarter. His body has nothing left to give for the bulk of this time. 2016 And then, when he needs it, he comments his body to do it one last time. Kobe plays the best last game ever in the NBA, at age 37. Dropping 60, destroying a Utah team that was a game out of the playoffs. If you can question his defense, you didn't watch him turn it on against the best players. You didn't listen to other players calling him the toughest player to defend. If you call him a chucker, you must have missed him have schemes designed just to stop him (forget his teammates), designated "Kobe defenders" to follow him (Patterson, Bowen, Battier, Allen, Prince, Bell), and triple and quadruple teams. And still he scored. And if you think he's not a winner, his record speaks otherwise. I don't care if you think LeBron is better, but don't pretend to know Kobe's greatness if you didn't follow his career.
