Star Wars Thread (a Galaxy Far Far Away) Obi-Wan Movie In The Works! (36)

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I'm absolutely still of the general idea this movie is wonderful for the franchise. It does things we don't expect and that's hard, but it's needed to keep the 8th movie fresh.

As for Leia: I loved the concept but visually it was just not well executed. She looked like Mary Poppins... it could have been handled better.

I think Hamill is most disappointed in the fact that the once optimistic Luke is now so distraught and downtrodden. He hates that. Hamill had always assumed Luke would be the most heroic character till the end of his life and he doesn't view this as heroic. Honestly though it's JJ's fault, not Rian's. JJ was the one who put him on a remote island isolated from the galaxy. Why would a hero do that? There's ways to right it were Luke was doing it for the greater good or something but that would be a Luke story and this is supposed to be about Kylo and Rey. Rian has said though that he never intended this to be Luke's last movie. He knows how to Force ghost and has a reason to come back in both Kylo and Rey.

 

Side note, I’m realizing more and more how wildly opinions of these movies varies more than ever before. Hell, my personal rankings fluctuate, some days ROTJ drags and bores me, sometimes it feels like the most Star Wars movie of all of them (the nostalgia of Endor being a major feature of the Star Tours line during my childhood adds to that). I really, really like Episode 3, a lot don’t. I absolutely love Rogue One, and many fans seem to think it’s trash. I watched 1-3, Rogue One, then 4-7 in a like 3 day period this last weekend and man do I love Rogue One, it slides in perfectly for me between 3 and 4 and the characters deaths hit me every time. A lot of people say they feel nothing though. So yes, I need to see 8 many more times before I can make my final call, I’ve seen 7 like 30 times if I count stopping on it whenever I’d see it on Starz, and I’ve seen Rogue One like 8 times.

 

Oh there's no doubt Star Wars fans are the worst. They're extremely passionate and extremely opinionated and there's 40 some odd years of material that they love and hate and expect to be worked in by Star Wars but in a fun, fresh way. It's a gift and a curse because so many people care so deeply about this world, but at the same time it's therefore easy to upset us. I mean if a good friend of yours does something you don't expect that affects you, you're going to immediately be hurt. Even if they can explain it well and tell you what happened, it's going to take a minute to see their side instead of just seeing betrayal. I think that's where a lot of fans are right now and I can't blame them really.

 

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It's not about not "doing something they don't expect" for a lot of us. It seems like that's the standard issue talking point retort for the people that like the movie. The problem isn't that we didn't get any answer on Snoke or Rey's parents or all that stuff. It's not even that Luke died. It's that they fundamentally changed a character to prop up a new one. That's not doing what we didn't expect. That's retroactively hurting the original trilogy and turning possibly the greatest hero in the history of film into a different person in order to give you freedom so you can (green) milk the Star Wars name without having to actually work with the universe that's already been established.

Mark Hamill knows Luke better than anyone because he has played him and created all the backstory in his head for him. Mark has said that this isn't his Luke Skywalker and he said he fundamentally disagreed with every decision Rian made with Luke. If in Avenger's Infinity War Captain America decided to not to fight Thanos when he shows up and instead ran off to an island to drink walrus milk while Bucky and all his friends are getting slaughtered by Thanos, that would be totally ridiculous and completely out of character for Captain America. But that isn't even an apples to apples comparison. Captain America would also have to have inadvertently created Thanos and unleashed his hate on the world. Everyone would be livid if that was the payoff in Infinity War for the second most important character in the MCU (the most important in many people's eyes).

I am kind of tired of people using the, "This movie challenged people by doing something they didn't expect." as if Lucasfilm has some grand plan other than making money. They don't. They have admitted that they are sort of taking this one film at a time and have super loose bullet points sort of plotting the thing, but in essence are making it up as they go. JJ could take everything Rian did and somehow undo it if he felt so inclined and Disney liked the pitch. Are there people that are upset solely because their Rey and Snoke theories didn't pan out? Sure. But there is a huge contingency that are more upset that they decided to retroactively and permanently change who Luke is. Why did Disney include the original cast in these movies? To get butts in seats and to get their characters over (to use a wrestling term). This is Star Wars in name only at this point. They have changed the very core of characters and they have changed the way the Force works. I could make Episode 9 where Chewbacca shaves his entire body and reveals he has force powers. Chewie then takes my dog as an apprentice and they fly around the galaxy trying to snuff out the death sticks trade. Nobody expected that! That would be challenging to Star Wars fan as my Boston Terrier deftly wields his s*** brown lightsaber despite having no thumbs. I'd love the movie cause my dog would look adorable in a Jedi robe leaping around like Master Yoda in Episode II. And I'm sure some other people would like it too because it's "bold" and it takes the franchise in a "new direction."

 

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I’m not even sure I disagree with any of this even though overall I liked the movie. What I am still struggling with is just how much Rian Johnson throws out the window from TFA. It’s fine to give answers we didn’t expect, but you kind of have to keep a cohesive story, you can’t ignore the set up movie that much and not raise issues. Like half of TFA Luke/Anakin’s lightsaber is super important. The sword of Skywalker, Kylo Ren will destroy everything to take it, it shows Rey visions and calls to her. Then first time we see it in TLJ Luke tosses it over his shoulder. That seems an obvious double meaning moment to me, of Rian Johnson tossing TFA. I guess they sort of come back to it later after Kylo turns on Rey in Snoke’s throne room, and tries to take it again, but it gets destroyed so...yeah. Still struggling with that one, of all things ignored from TFA that one might bug me most.

 

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I'm sorry if this all came off wrong, my friend. I'm not saying these things to upset you. This is genuinely how I feel about the movie. I genuinely feel like Rian took what he was given and went somewhere special with it. I grew up idolizing the same characters, but in the end they're just parts of the story.

But if you really want to be upset with someone: be upset with JJ. He's the one who put Luke out on an island in the middle of nowhere while the First Order rose to power. Rian did the only thing that made sense: made him a bitter old man. What else could it be? Rian is a fan the same way we are and he knew the only reason Luke would keep himself out of the fight is if he's become bitter over time. What other reason does he have for being out there? The Force Awakens STARTS with Luke being out of the picture. What could possibly happen to keep Luke out of the picture that way? Is Obi-Wan also not a hero? Is Yoda? They both sat out as well. I think Mark is (justifiably) upset because his character has changed so much, but it's the only way that fits the current narrative that JJ built. JJ can be mad, you can be mad, Mark can be mad, but this is the only story that fits the original story from Episode 7 from a storytelling perspective.

And in the end, Luke is renewed and finds himself again anyway. He does what a hero does, he does what a legend does, and he stands up to the entire First Order in an AWESOME way. He saves the Rebellion all by himself by standing before the full might of the First Order, what could be more Luke Skywalker than that? In th end he's FILLED with optimism again as he sends Rey off on the next chapter for the Jedi.

I know you don't want to hear it, but these stories aren't about Luke. They're about Rey and they're about Kylo and that means Luke was taken out of the equation. Rian gave Luke the end that was justified after he was forced on to this island. As for whether or not Disney has a plan, let's not pretend the originals were so well thought out. Lucas was only really fully involved with Episode 4 and then in 5 was forced to take a backseat. When he took greater control again, it was for Episode 6 which was universally considered worse than 5 because of the teddy bears and the rehashed plot points (a second death star already?). If you don't think these are Star Wars movies, then I'm sorry you feel that way. This to me was a very Star Wars movie. This was easily more Star Wars to me than Episodes 1 and 2 which were made almost solely by Lucas. This movie was as good as any of the ones we've had, it's just that you don't like the new characters so you're not as invested. That's fine, but it's also fine if I do and I love what Rian did with it. He took the story that JJ started, like it or not, and went somewhere we haven't been yet in Star Wars. We haven't had a Dark Side user who has usurped power already and we get to see him in charge. That's easily the most compelling story and he just happens to be a Skywalker to boot. I love those movies, but we put them on a pedestal as fans. This story (aside from the casino scene which I still don't love) is not all that different from those, it's just newer.

 

Oh and Savory, Mark Hamill agrees with you, so there’s that. (Obviously spoiler article)

http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-on-luke-skywalker/

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Personally, I don’t mind the Luke we get in this movie, because people change over time, and it’s been 30 years for Luke. Prequel Yoda is not OT Yoda, he changed due to events in his life. Prequel Obi-Wan is not OT Obi-wan, he’s very limited compared to what he was, and Lucas did both of those things. One thing I agreed with in that podcast I linked yesterday was that the Luke we got here was very physically in line we with the Luke we know. Physically it would be weird to see him flipping and doing any prequel type stuff, the cgi would look bad on Luke. So I liked what Rian did with that, Luke was very Luke in that way, I think that partially is why he doesn’t travel to Crait. But yes, I agree with you, overall he is a changed man in this movie, and I understand why so many fans are angry.

 

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Rian sort of half-way admits that he did that, but he also says he wrote this movie long before the audience got a chance to even watch TFA so he's not doing anything out of spite towards fans. He just felt like what JJ set up was too close to the originals and so he went sideways with the story. That moment itself was definitely done as a shock and hopefully a laugh from fans, but I don't think it landed for everyone. I thought it was kind of funny. If you think about why Luke is out there, his response makes sense, but Rian definitely didn't pay off JJ's cliffhangers.

But honestly though as fans: if Luke is out there by himself, after the FO has built a station 10x as powerful as the Death Star, then why is he there and what does that mean for his character? Rian didn't write that, JJ did. It was the story we all saw and for the most part loved, so lets fix it. If he's out there, what reason does he have for letting the FO grow to power?

 

Here's a reddit thread debating this topic. I wanted to see how other fans have viewed Luke and this take on Luke. Now, the original post is one I don't really agree with, but the comments help put things in perspective as well. Obviously spoilers for those who haven't seen the movie.

edit- just realized it opened as a window and I apologize profusely if someone read that.

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@Savory Griddles there's an excellent take in there by someone who says that this type of story isn't what they think SW should be and that it was intended to be a Space Opera and going away from that isn't the right way to go. I can see that side, but I also enjoy this side as well. And given that Empire didn't end with a ton of optimism, I don't think this is too far from a space opera anyway. Hell, given what Luke was able to accomplish, this ends a hell of a lot more optimistic than Empire did anway.

 

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You saying them doesn't upset me. I was simply commenting on that seemingly being the standard response. This isn't Youtube. I know nobody here is trying to piss anyone off. We've honestly all been friends for like a decade at this point. As for who to be upset with, it's actually not JJ. Yes, Luke is on an island by himself. But it was set up by Han that he went looking for the original Jedi Temples. He tells Rey and Finn that when they first escape on the Falcon. It's set up by JJ that Luke went to go find answers and he left a map behind to find him when the time came. That wasn't even really that much of a mystery to us until Luke said, "It's time for the Jedi to end." in that first trailer. Luke went to the island to find answers as to what went wrong. That was the narrative set up in the Force Awakens. Keep in mind too, the timing of all this. When Luke leaves there isn't some huge war going on. He isn't on that island by himself for long. The Bloodline novel takes place 6 years before the beginning of Force Awakens, and at that point, Ben Solo is still with Luke, so Luke was only exiled for at most 6 years, maybe as little as a couple.

Other people are saying that Obi and Yoda did the same thing. No. They did not. They retreated at a time when the entire galaxy thought the Jedi had just attempted a coup and they went away to wait for the Skywalker children to grow up. Obi-Wan is looking over Luke on Tatooine. Those two made a strategic retreat until they could fight back. There was no rebellion and people had no idea what was in store for them with the Empire. Yoda and Obi-Wan were public enemy #1 for everyone in the galaxy. There was no Force user powerful enough to contend with the Empire.

When Luke left, the New Republic still existed. And he left to go off an die, not bide his time until the moment was right which is what JJ strongly alluded to by saying he went to find a temple and left a map behind. I mean, if he just wants to die, why go to an old Jedi temple? Why go someplace ridiculously strong in the Force if your going to cut yourself off from it? If anything, JJ's breadcrumbs forced Rian into putting him someplace that didn't even make sense for Rian's story. Rian was just dead set on taking everything and doing the opposite of what people expected even if it broke continuity and made no logical sense. He wanted to be M. Night Shyamalan on steroids.

 

Also for what it's worth, the Luke we got was from none other than Lucas himself. http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/

 

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Jeez has it been a decade already... yeesh.

I just completely disagree. Rian's characterization of Luke fits just fine with any normal person. The whole point from Luke in this movie is that he's been turned into a myth and that he is not that man. He's just a man. And yet when it's all said and done, he does something so profoundly heroic that he turns him back into the myth he thought he couldn't be. He is exactly Luke Skywalker at the end of the movie.

Luke didn't intentionally leave a trail behind by the way. The only way he was found was because of some file that the Resistance was able to dig out of Empirical storage. He didn't want to be found. And yes Yoda did the exact same thing. Obi-Wan did the exact same thing. They let millions die, be enslaved, and ran from their failure. They could have spent 20 years building something for the future and instead Yoda left to a far away planet and Obi-Wan babysat. They are still Jedi and they're still heroes.

Why die at an old Jedi temple? I don't know. Maybe he just liked it there. It was certainly scenic. Why did Yoda go to Dagobah? Yoda could have stayed in Tatooine too or gone to Alderaan to watch over Leia.

JJ is the one who divorced Leia and Han. JJ is the one who put Luke on an island by himself while a superpowered First Order came to power. That's on him. For storytelling purposes, Rian took this where it needed to go: away from the original tropes and into something different. Away from Emperors and someone bailing out our hero (Luke gets bailed out in literally all three original movies).

 

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It's funny the lengths someone goes to prove something, but actually proves the exact opposite to be true.
The poster uses examples of Luke being brash and making mistakes as proof. I mean, he was basically introduced to the Force and then had to self-train for 3 years before Empire Strikes Back, at an age that is less than ideal to start your training, so he is obviously going to make bad mistakes. He’s not Rey.

But what does this character progression of Luke through the original trilogy show us? It shows us he never gives up. Yes, he made tons of mistakes. But he fails and gets back up. He loses his hand and gets back up. He goes on a suicide mission into the heart of the Death Star, not to even save his Father’s life, but to save his soul, a father he never actually knew. (a Father who just happened to be the second most evil S.O.B. in the galaxy) He goes to try and save his friends no matter how dangerous the mission is. And the Luke we got in Episode 8 lost his nephew, a boy he trained and helped raise for YEARS, and instead of trying to win him back, he says screw it. Let everyone else deal with it. It’s why Luke is the hero we love. He never gives up. He is a legend because of the deeds we witnessed, not the deeds we were told about from some person who heard them from someone else. It’s why his character works and why Rey is completely uninteresting and gets the Mary Sue tag. The original poster, in trying to show how flawed Luke is, actually proves why he never would have become the person we saw in Episode 8.

And to give this even more perspective, those examples he uses of his failures happened when he was a kid in his mid-20s with very little knowledge of the Force. At the time Kylo fell, Luke would have been 20 years older. 20 years wiser. 20 years of learning all about the Force and meditating on it. Not only is it asinine to believe he would have gave up when he was in his early years, it is even more ridiculous to think that after decades steeped in the Force and essentially raising a child as a second Dad, he would have given up so easy on him. And if he knew he couldn’t turn him back, he wouldn’t have left him as a problem for Leia and Han to deal with.

So no. Rian Johnson wasn’t a genius. He was a hack who wanted to be edgy and wanted to show our heroes aren’t perfect. Problem is we already knew Luke wasn’t perfect. Rian just made him an a— hole.

 

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Now I don't agree with the bumbling failure of Luke necessarily, but I do agree with that guy's general point in that Luke isn't all that great a hero and in the end maybe all of those years of failure weighed down on the man. I don't see that as so hard to believe at all. He couldn't save his father. He was outclassed by the Emperor pretty easily. He routinely spat in the face and failed his mentors. Maybe losing his nephew to the Dark Side was enough to push the man over the edge. I don't see that as so hard to believe and I certainly don't think it's an edgy take at all. Luke is a human being who experienced human emotions and failures and in the end Rian Johnson still gave him a greater act of heroism than any previous director did.

Rian Johnson is the best thing to happen to Luke. There I said it!

 

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But those failures were when he was a kid. The Kylo failure happened 30 years later. I mean, I would just assume that time and age and experience would have healed all those wounds from the previous failures...not to mention blowing up the Deathstar and unseeding the Emperor probably made it all worth it. I had failures when I was younger. I didn't get my hand chopped off by my evil father, but those failures helped me grow, just like Luke's did. Yoda has to tell Luke to learn from his failures and pass down that knowledge. I'm a 38 year old dude that has zero connection to the Force and even I know that lesson. It's all just very inconsistent.

Any way, I think we've given each other our best shot in terms of convincing the other person, and neither one of us seems to want to change sides. So I'm going to have to let you follow Ben to the Dark Side...cause that's obviously our current dichotomy in terms of who's walking in the light. Granted, that leaves my a-- over here with Mary Sue. I will no doubt be scolded by her so she can be made to look better. I suppose that's better than having to deal with a Kylo-tantrum though.

 

I was born for this.

But really though I think Kylo is by far the most interesting character for Episode 9 and I'm really eager to see where he goes. Everyone else I feel like I pretty much know how they'll end, but Kylo is the interesting one.

 

For sure. Kylo is all this film has going for it at this point.

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I was watching the Red Letter Media review of the movie. They also said something that is kind of true. The end of this movie feels like the end of the first episode of a TV show and now we are going to follow Rey and the Falcon crew on their weekly adventure against Kylo and his treachery. This end of this movie had the feeling of a final film that will spawn a TV show.

 

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Isn’t Kylo Ren pretty awesome though? Do we all agree on that? I think Driver kicks a** in that role, I love the character because he is so conflicted, I never could tell if he was going to change sides at any point. His grey area is unlike any character of his type I think we’ve seen in the movies before, and I friggin loved when he went full dark side and took over as Supreme Leader, so Vader. He’s probably my favorite character of the new trilogy. This article points out that he’s kind of better than the Anakin we got in the prequels, and I agree. I think that’s partly Hayden, and partly poor witting and horrible dialogue. I don’t think even Leo Diacaprio could have pulled off some of that dialogue.

http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-kylo-ren-darth-vader-anakin/

Edit: I wrote all this while out running errands and before refreshing this page and didn’t see the last 2 posts about Kylo ha ha.

 

Agree. Kylo is carrying this thing at this point. He is easily my favorite character at this point in this trilogy.

 

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I actually disagree. I think it sets up a pretty epic finish. Rey/Kylo is now going to come to a head where we have ostensibly the two most powerful Force users (at least potentially) we've seen thus far trying to figure out how to finish this thing. I think it sets up for a finale better than Empire did actually. After Empire it felt like... what the f*** do we do now?