To Serve And Protect

Do you believe at all that, while a separate issue, much of this anger is misplaced when the statistics also show black-on-black violence to be far more deadly than police violence? There is national outrage at the police issues, but black people in Chicago and LA have been killing each other at double or triple the rate or some such thing without the same outrage. I think Damien Lillard tried to make that statement and nobody really listens to it. I find that sad and just wanted to know your thoughts on it.

I also find it disappointing on a macro level that we're fighting these battles today. What f***ing year is this? Race relations are at the lowest point they've been in 50 some odd years. I find it disappointing that at this stage in the American story we're all still focused on color. I was raised differently. Color is meaningless to me which is why I have a hard time relating to these issues even though the only white blood in me is an Irish immigrant some 6-7 generations ago.

 

I think that's a false equivalency or association or whatever you want to call it.

Criminals aren't supposed to be working for us and helping us in our times of greatest need.

The reason why Police killings is such a hot topic is that they are supposed to be the ones that we can trust to protect us from violence. If we don't even feel the people that are paid to protect us and help us in times of need will do so, and in fact, might hurt or kill us just as easily as the criminals (yes, many black people fee this way), then what the hell are we paying their salaries for through taxes?

 

That's fair. I understand that.

My greater question though is: why doesn't anyone care about Chicago? More deaths, black-on-black violence so literally killing each other, and it's been swept almost completely under the rug. Do you not feel like this is even a little bit misplaced anger along with the rightful outrage of the last couple videos?

 

Crime in the black community has gone down substantially. I posted this earlier in this thread:

"In the last 20 years in particular, the FBI reports, rates of crime among African American youth have plummeted: All offenses (down 47%), drug offenses (down 50%), property offenses (down 51%), serious Part I offenses (down 53%), assault (down 59%), robbery (down 60%), all violent offenses (down 60%), rape (down 66%), and murder (down 82%)."

So Chicago is a relatively isolated instance of rising black crime when on the whole it's dipping. But I don't feel it's a genuine question by the media and those spreading the talking point when police violence comes up. They don't really give a flying f*** about Chicago. They didn't before BLM and they don't now. They just want to say something to confuse the issue, because they want to discredit the validity of BLM.

 

But I DO care. I wondered why it wasn't a bigger issue before all this police stuff! I think it IS a legitimate question why nobody cares about that city. I'm not saying this to confuse this issue. I think this issue has been (pardon the pun) made far too black and white. It's not so simple as "cops are racist" or "cops are justified". Each case deserves its own breakdown and each case deserves to be seen from all sides. I don't see any reasonable way to explain the last two videos (although it is true we didn't see the start of the second video so there's a chance that went differently than it looks). The first one though the man is pinned down and shot in the chest point blank. I don't think that cop was thinking "I should kill this black man", but I do think that cop is probably more afraid of black people (maybe all minorities) than he probably should be which lead to a hasty and over-the-top response. He had the guy pinned down and could have easily tasered him instead of killed him. I'd even have understood a punch or something, some way to incapacitate a person besides killing them. The second video looks to me like an untrained cop who was again more scared than he should have been. I mean you can hear the fear in his voice, he's clearly unprepared for the incident that just happened. If everything went down the way the woman says, then even IF that cop is afraid the chain is pretty simple to me: 1) when the guy says he has a gun ask him to stay put with his hands clear, 2) approach the vehicle cautiously (take the gun out if you feel threatened) and calmly ask the man to exit the vehicle slowly with his hands visible, 3) assure the man and the woman that this is just until the gun is clear, 4) when the man is out of the vehicle calmly remove the weapon. Once the weapon is removed, paperwork can follow. I think a more well trained cop would have figured out how to do something along those lines. If the man in the car was innocent, the situation might seem a little bit excessive, but it keeps everyone safe. Just communicate the entire time that this is all for safety and nobody wants anything crazy to happen. I don't believe the cop in that second video was thinking "I should kill this black man". I think he was afraid. Now all those cops in Dallas are killed, and what does that do to help the police that are afraid? It makes the situation that much worse. Tragic.

But still I wonder why Chicago is so easily forgotten in all of this? It wasn't too long ago Rose was moved to tears at his shoe reveal when he was talking about the violence in the streets of Chicago and nothing has changed since then. Why does nobody, white, black, brown, orange, or blue, care about those kids?

 

Along the lines of Reals comments, I don't take the group BLM serious because I never see them protesting a black death at the hands of a black person. Do black Lives only matter when a white person kills them?

 

But what I'm saying is that the only reason you know anything about crime rates in Chicago, so that you do care, is that the media and those opposed to BLM brought it up specifically to counter the BLM argument. They don't care, and you don't hear anything about Chicago crime other than as an argument against BLM or similar black justice issues.

That's like saying you can't respect a cancer research organization because they aren't combating Aids. There are organizations that fight cancer, and their are organizations that fight Aids. Both are needed. Nobody would fault a researcher for selecting curing cancer as their concentration even though there are other terrible diseases out there.

Other than in Chicago and a few other communities, black crime rates are waaaaaayyy down. It's a b******* argument to deflect the topic (not created by you and real, but I feel it wouldn't come to mind if you hadn't seen the talking heads bring it up as an argument).

Can we only demand the people that are supposed to protect us stop killing us once we solve all crime? At what level of crime in Chicago would it be acceptable to call the police out for killing blacks? See, it's a really abstract argument that doesn't actually have any answer. Blacks killing blacks in Chicago is a problem and we don't get to talk about police killing us until when exactly? We reduce crime by 20%... 30% when?

Why are we being required to choose one travesty we have to solve before we can protest another? Who else is told they have to do this before they can have a valid complaint about an injustice?

 

But that's sincerely untrue. I have brought this up before. It's now a talking point in another discussion, but my opinions on black-on-black crime in Chicago existed much earlier than last week.

 

You're not understanding my point. I'm not accusing you of selectively talking about Chicago, I'm saying media spurred your knowledge for a reason.

BLM started out years ago with the Michael Brown case. No one was talking about Chicago crime rates before that. Black crime rates had been high in lots of cities before they started falling, and people didn't care much. It was status quo. Now, Chicago is such a problem because it's in the forefront of your thoughts, because you hear about it all the time from BLM opponents.

 

I mean I really don't think that's true. It's a question I'm asking NOW because of this particular debate, but it's something I've known about and wondered for years before this week. I brought it up here or at CL I think a long time before this week's narrative. and I still find it sad that even while talking about it now, nobody really cares on either side. As you said, today it's a media agenda, but nobody is actually trying to find ways to fix it on either side of the fence. Everyone is just okay with young black kids killing each other?

 

I don't think that's true, because it's a different problem, and it's not fair to require we fix one before demanding the other is changed. Who has successfully fixed crime in the US?

Marches aren't going to stop a gang banger from shooting another gang banger. The intricacies of socioeconomic politics, and generational poverty, and crime that results from it are way too deep to fix easily. People are working on it. They're doing the best they can, but there isn't a magic bullet to fix it.

Meanwhile, we're wasting time talking about something that can't be fixed in one generation while there's another problem that we can fix, and in fact, have a lot more ways to effect change. That's why black crime in Chicago is a distraction from something we can actually solve.

Why is this even a topic? Why do black people have to fix anything that affects us before we are allowed to want a fix to our people being unjustly killed by those who are supposed to protect us? Why isn't that fact that we are being unjustly killed enough?

I have never heard white people being told they should get rid of the KKK before they find a cure for Melanoma.

I have never heard Native Americans need to fix Alcoholism in their community before they complain about tribal land disputes.

Do Mexicans have to get rid of the Cartels before they can complain about immigration issues?

Seriously.... Chicago is just a distraction to bring up against BLM, and look at how many posts we have talking about it now.

 

I'm not calling for that and I've made it clear that I look at this as two separate issues. I'm not asking for anyone to fix everything and I'm not asking for this to be involved with the police shootings. I'm admittedly taking this thread off-topic because I'm curious about why nobody is actually trying to tackle this.

That's pretty much the answer I was asking for.

I disagree that this can't be fixed and I disagree it's a waste of time. I think it's sad you think it's nothing but a distraction. It's lives. I wonder why they're valued differently, that's all. These black lives matter too, no?

We can talk about both. I've been talking about both. Just because something is hard or harder to change doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed or attempted to change.

My question is exactly the opposite: why isn't this a topic? It needs to be. I'm not alone in thinking that way and I'm upset that others think it shouldn't be a topic. There's room for more than one topic at a time, isn't there? Or are we only allowed to fight for one thing at a time?

I don't like any of those examples. I don't subscribe to stupid racists, I hate the way Native Americans have been treated, I actually do think something needs to be done about the Cartels. I'm willing to talk about all those things. Everything should be able to be touched on. And I'd argue actually that the drug cartel issue is one that I put just behind the Chicago issue and maybe before it as it pertains to the entire country. The drug cartel issue is a shockingly serious one as they continue to push further and further in the US. That's absolutely something I'm willing to argue and fight for.

I just don't understand why your argument is A or B. My argument is A and B. These both deserve attention. Why do you disagree?

 

They are not valued differently, they are just not deaths we can change so easily. Crime and poverty can't be fixed so easily. I feel like in asking this question, you're asking us to solve crime, socioeconomic issues, generational poverty, and the racism that got us here, because that's what it would involve to solve these problems. That's not easy. Certainly not as easy as putting political pressure on policing institutions in order to enact change. So while I and most other black people care about both, one I'm in for changing over the long haul, and one I want changed right now, because it can be.

I don't have a problem with it being brought up. I have a problem with it only being brought up in this thread.

There isn't a thread about the violence in Chicago, and if it was really a concern, where is the thread? I made this one because police killing was a concern of mine, but I feel it shouldn't be on me to make a thread about every black topic. If you or anyone else wants to talk about Chicago, I'd be happy, but this thread isn't about Chicago, and I don't feel it's a valid counter to the demand that cops stop killing us unjustly.

PS: I feel like you might be reading my posts thinking I'm getting worked up or adversarial, but I'm not thinking that. But it's hard to tell a person's emotions through text. This is just a conversation to me explaining my thoughts.

 

No I'm with you. This honestly is probably the place where I've had the best political conversations. Social media is a wasteland and the general population is pretty misinformed. We're cool.

And as for it coming up here, I am definitely piggy backing off the narrative. I don't subscribe to it, I'm just using it to gauge the feeling in this thread about it. I sincerely could have sworn I (or maybe @revgen ?) made a thread about the Chicago issue. I know I've definitely talked about at it at some point either here or on CL. I definitely remember having those conversations. I'm more asking genuinely why the greater public is either unaware or ambivalent to this issue. Everyone kind of touches on it and then just... lets it go for more modern concerns. It's not right. The political landscape of this country is all sorts of f***ed up.

 

This isn't an All Lives Matter argument. I'm saying they only show up when a non-black person kills a black person. If black lives matter, which I fully believe they do, then ALL black lives should matter and it shouldn't matter who does the killing. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

I'm with you on the cop killings. I believe me and you sided with each other against Bonkscooter at CL on this one. I believe my argument then was that we grieve an elderly person passing, but we mourn the passing of a child due to the "out of order". The police work for us. I respect the police and will support them when they're right, but want them prosecuted when they're not in the right. And I fully support anyone protesting them in those situations.

And I'm not saying we have to fix the Chicago killings before the cop killings. I'm saying BLM shouldn't ignore 95% and only focus on 2 or 3 per year when it's a white person. Sounds very biased and race related when it shouldn't if black lives really matter. Having said that, I believe me and you (and others) are in agreement for the most part.

To @Barnstable and everyone else engaging in these discussions, I truly appreciate the dialog. Let's never let it divide us. Approach these discussions with a listening ear and empathy for the people who think differently and/or look differently from you. Let's discuss, learn, and grow.

Much love!

 

My argument's always been cops in general doing this, but I know some think it's exclusively black and white. I don't think so. I think it's an us cops vs them mentality, and blacks, asians, everybody is susceptible.

 

I do believe that what started as a good idea has become a problem. Legislation DOES protect cops because their job is one of the hardest imaginable. To put themselves in danger means we should be able to trust them to make difficult and split second decisions in order to save lives even if it costs a life. For instance if someone is reaching for a weapon then a cop's life and the lives of others is at stake. However now cops of low moral character or even untrained cops can do wrong and the law will protect them. Adjustments need to be made.

 

In Baton Rouge, they are going after the cops for Civil Rights violation. That's federal charges. That's a step in the right direction, IMO.

 

Watch this and be sure to stick around for the 2nd body cam. I think you'll see it totally different. This is not to say every police shooting is justified, because I don't feel that way. Just showing what cops deal with and a 2nd set of eyes (in the form of the 2nd body cam) can show a different perspective.

 

No doubt a different angle can reveal the truth of a situation sometimes.