LABron James Discussion: 21st Season - Setting New Standards

I just don't understand why you think that. This Cavs team is utter garbage. The East sucks but not bad enough that they would sniff playoffs without Lebron. I don't even like the guy. Never have. I just don't get your being adamant on this point which seems pretty obvious. To be fair though, it's your opinion and you are welcome to it. Sorry if I'm sounding harsh, it's more disbelief than anything for my part.

 

Said it for me, thanks LJ.

There is evidence actually for my point. Look at the numbers for every player on the Cavs and compare them to any team to make the Finals. Ever. They're awful. It's clear. And it's supported by evidence, but I suppose that's just d*** measuring.

 

Webber just called James Han Solo...

 

At this point, sure, he is Solo.

 

Do you have strong evidence to support that these guys deserve more credit? LeBron is forced to play 48 minutes to beat a mediocre C Bags team missing their best player. If this team was worth anything, why does that need to happen? I am highly opinionated, but I try my best to bring a reasoning for that opinion. If I can't, I concede my opinion is no more valid than anyone else's (the LeBron pros and cons argument comes to mind). I've provided plenty of statistical evidence and anecdotal evidence for why this Cavs team is awful and fully reliant on ridiculous effort from LeBron. What do you have? Good discussion takes people bringing good points. So far you've simply laid out your opinion that this team is a playoff team, but done nothing to support the claim.

Dont be passive aggressive about it, come with it. That was my favorite part of CL: the opinionated discussions. Dont take it personally, just construct your argument. Prove me wrong.

 

What players on Cleveland make them a playoff team if LeBron is gone? Love? Never made the playoffs as the franchise player. Jeff Green, Rodney Hood? Talented role players. Clarkson and Nance? Never sniffed the playoffs. Korver, Smith, Hill? Aging, not super talented role players. I never argue in LeBron’s favor, but this is a team of one other all-star who played 5 mins in game 6 and missed game 7, and a bunch of role players and cast-offs. It’s not really debatable that that’s what they are, we know this. Hell, Clarkson and Nance came off of the bench for us and Calderon couldn’t even do that so we dumped him. This Cavs team is not a playoff team without LeBron, they have zero young draft talents like the C Bags, and LeBron and love are the only ones averaging double figures in scoring during the playoffs, and Love is at 13.9 ppg, that’s sad. I don’t even really see the point in arguing this to be honest, it’s that apparent to me. In other years I’d agree when he had Kyrie and Love was playing better, or when he had Wade and Bosh and some serious vets off the bench in Miami, but not this team, this team stinks. If LeBron left this offseason and they made no other moves, this roster does not make the playoffs, hell the Bucks were only the 8th seed and they have Giannis and a group of really talented players.

 

The flip side of that is that average players put up bigger numbers on crappy teams. Those players had bigger roles because they had to on their bad to awful teams, of course they have less of a role/impact around a star like LeBron. I agree that he doesn’t make everyone around him better, but who does? He’s not magic, or Magic.

 

I like this post a hundred times more than the last one.



That being said, I'm with Weezy. What I see here has more to do with Lue and with circumstance than with LeBron making them worse. Also, I'm not sure where some of your numbers are coming from.

George in Sacramento averaged 10.3 points, 2.7 rebounds, and 2.8 assists. His numbers with Cleveland are almost identical with a slight drop in points and a big dip in efficiency. His USG% is only a percentage point different as well. His % of FG attempts by distance are all either the same or within a couple percentage points. It's possible having the ball out of his hands has affected his ability to produce, but it's equally possible that being on a new team is difficult and integrating yourself into their system takes time that the Cavs simply never had. It's rare when a player gets traded, lands in a new city, and immediately picks up what the coach wants. Paus don't grow on trees. George in the playoffs is basically who he has been all season though. He's averaging just about 10/2/2, the only difference is his shooting percentage has plummeted. HIs USG% is down in the playoffs, but he's been terrible so it's hard to say that's LeBron's fault.

Kevin Love is the player used most to say LeBron makes his teammates worse (or at least not better), but I argue it's the complete opposite. Love had gaudy averages on the Wolves, but the most he'd ever won before LeBron was 40 games and he never made the playoffs. All those stats were empty numbers. Teaming with LeBron of course his stats are going to take a hit, but he went from no playoffs in 6 years to 4 straight Finals. HIs USG% took a big fall that first season with LeBron, but this year he's back up in the 25-26 range and still not putting up the same numbers he did in Minnesota. His rebounding numbers have taken a dive and never really recovered. There's no good reason for that. You could argue I guess that Love has "lost it" a bit since teaming with LeBron, but isn't that on him too? He should have been Pau to LeBron this season without Kyrie, but he simply doesn't have that anymore. And again, this season he shot 41% from three, but in the playoffs all the way down to 34.6% with very similar USG%. Why is his shooting so much worse in the playoffs?

Jordan's shooting actually improved with the Cavs. He went from 32% to 41% from three so your "not a spot up shooter" thing doesn't hold with him. More than that though, Jordan's USG% with us was actually really high for a bench player. When he went to Cleveland that dipped a little but was still nearly the same USG% as Kevin Love so Cleveland wants him to be a thing. His USG% with the Cavs in the regular season was 24.1% and it's 22.4% in the playoffs. That's fairly close. The difference is his FG% has plummeted from 45.6% (40.7% from deep) to 30.9% (25.6% from deep). Isn't that more indicative that Jordan has just been awful in the playoffs? The Cavs clearly want him to be a guy they can rely on off the bench and he's failing them completely. I'm not sure this is something that can be blamed on LeBron.

Rodney Hood is a really strange case. I think Lue hates him to be honest. Earlier in the playoffs he was sat for an entire game and then he pulled himself from their lineup to protest not playing. His minutes plummeted from over 25 during the regular season to just above 15 minutes in the playoffs. He played himself out of the rotation. I don't know why his minutes took a dive, but I suspect this has to do with Lue. LeBron doesn't make the minutes for other players.

You left Larry Nance off your list, but that's probably because his numbers stayed just about the same in LA and Cleveland in the regular season. He dipped in the playoffs again for reasons only Lue can tell you. What NBA folks have said is that Lue just doesn't trust the new players compared to the ones he's had. That's why JR Smith gets 30+ minutes per game and Rodney Hood can't get off the bench. You put a solid amount of blame on LeBron for statistical dips, but what were these players doing before LeBron? Missing the playoffs mostly or not having much success in them.

I'll also leave this here: Pau is known for taking to the Triangle faster than anybody we've ever seen before. His numbers in Memphis before the trade- 18.9 points, 8.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.4 blocks. His numbers after the trade- 18.8 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.6 blocks. His numbers in the Finals 08- 14.7 points, 10.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.5 blocks.

Or how about 2011 when Pau's averages dropped from 18.8/10.2/3.3 on 53% shooting in the regular season to 13.1/7.8/3.1 on 42% shooting in the playoffs with only a slight percentage difference in USG%. What changed?

His USG% was lower than 20% in the playoffs. He was the perfect robin to Kobe and even he struggled in those Finals. Was it Kobe's fault Pau didn't play well? We always give Pau tons of blame for the way he played in 08 and 2011. You want to give credit to the other players for being better than what i'm characterizing them as, but if that's the case then shouldn't they also be responsible for their own numbers?

 

Defending LeBron? Nah. That post is just defending my own position that this Cavs team sucks.

 

Yeah, I give up. LeBron makes his teammates bad, and a roster of

George Hill/Jose Calderon
Jordan Clarkson/JR Smith/Rodney Hood
Jeff Green/Kyle Korver/Cedi Osman
Kevin Love/Larry Nance Jr
Tristan Thompson/Ante Zizic/Kendrick Perkins

Could make the playoffs. Ok.

 

This is a good point.

The Wizards with John Wall, Bradley Beal, and Marcin Gortat didn't make the playoffs.
The Pistons with Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, and Reggie Jackson didn't make the playoffs.
The Hornets with Kemba Walker, Nicolas Batum, and an actually decent Dwight Howard didn't make the playoffs.

That Cavs team is more like the Knicks or Nets who won 29 and 28 games respectively.

 

True, but Brad Stevens is better than just about any other coach out there right now.

Not to mention he still had Horford and the youngsters were playing really well. His roster depth helped big time. If Kyrie and Hayward are healthy, that time looks awfully frightening next year.