Star Wars Thread (a Galaxy Far Far Away) Obi-Wan Movie In The Works! (36)

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by DarthRekal, Oct 13, 2014.

  1. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
    We just don’t agree on the “neutering of male characters” point, and we aren’t going to. I don’t even know what you mean by that, and I’m not asking you to explain, because I’ve read every post in this thread and all your specific TLJ issues. I didn’t get this from any of the new SWs movies, there’s no anti-men agenda in these films that I perceived at all. We’ll just have to agree to disagree there and that’s fine. But the majority of hate I’m seeing, every other video on YouTube right now, is spouting the stuff I’m talking about seeing too much of and wanting nothing to do with, and I’m sick of it, it’s disgusting. I think my point remains though, fans aren’t unified with one goal in mind here, you want these males to apparently be un-neutered, and I’m not even sure what that would mean Disney changing, and I do not believe you represent all the fans boycotting in that, everyone has their own reasons and it will be impossible to please everyone, never gonna happen. The portrayal of Luke for example, is done, it’s not gonna be changed, it is what it is now, fans will have to accept it, or stop watching the films for good, because Disney isn’t remaking 8. I mean what do you boycotters actually expected to happen here, Disney is gonna fire Kennedy, hire a man, Luke will re-appear alive and be an awesome unstoppable Jedi master and save the galaxy? Come on now.
     
  2. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    If male neutering were even an issue, why would Solo do so badly? It's a movie specifically about a male protagonist (3 actually) who is the title character and one of the most masculine role models in SW lore, if not the most.
     
  3. GlickenGoshDebate Tactics

    GlickenGoshDebate Tactics Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    How about no politically motivated casting. If they hired an Indian filmaker who used Indian actors it was dubbed in English i would be fine with it.

    The color changes are literally cosmetic, because it's Star Wars you won't see Atlanta culture, Nigerian, Korean culture etc ... reflected ont he screen.

    I think pop culture depolitization is a worthy cause considering how things are right now. Disney messed up sports with politics and now Star Wars. It's a well deserved slap in the face.

    Disney is a publicly traded company, so:

    [​IMG]

    Some change of direction is required, it does have to be that. But they need to go backwards to the past, to the way things were.

    Harrison Ford is and was way more masculine than this underwear model they have now.
     
  4. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
    I gotta be honest, I have no idea what the heck you’re talking about half the time. But I don’t really care if the color changes are cosmetic. What they are going for is more diversity, more representation than white people in these films, and they should. You cast a wider net and you find some really great actors, like Boyega and Issacs, and the incredibly diverse cast of Rogue One. Giving more people of any color, race, however you want to say it, allows SW to be open to anyone in the world starring in the movies. This isn’t a problem, whether it’s done for “cosmetic” reasons or not, it is a good thing. I don’t really know what the picture of Quark is supposed to be saying, but if you’re saying they need more aliens, they have plenty of them in each movie so far, tons of new aliens have been shown. Your last point on masculinity is just plain insulting. You don’t decide what is masculine, it comes in many forms to many different people. That’s what I’m talking about when I say Star Wars fans cannot be pleased (or more like placated) right now, you can’t even cast an actor they deem not masculine enough, let alone put a woman in the lead. I don’t even know why I’m bothering to respond to this stuff at this point.
     
  5. GlickenGoshDebate Tactics

    GlickenGoshDebate Tactics Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    Then talent is not going to be better because huge regions of the world are poor or their culture discourages acting as a career even more. There is no race magic to finding better talent. Why should Disney give a rip one way or another about the color of the characters? It's not like the press could shame them to do anything with SW if they are barely competent.

    Isaacs is great, if i was not a movie wonk i would just assume he is white and move on. Bayega is not height of charisma as an actor and he showcases very little of his talents.

    SW is the most global brand ever, it was always open to anyone.

    This isn’t a problem, whether it’s done for “cosmetic” reasons or not, it is a good thing.

    It would be fairly irrelevant if Disney was not on a political crusade making Kamikaze moves.



    I don’t really know what the picture of Quark is supposed to be saying, but if you’re saying they need more aliens, they have plenty of them in each movie so far, tons of new aliens have been shown.

    I am saying market daddy corrects it's children trough the stock market if Disney keeps f***ing up like this.

    Your last point on masculinity is just plain insulting. You don’t decide what is masculine, it comes in many forms to many different people.

    They clearly did not belive the actor replicated or evolved Ford's masculinity that is why he was barely in the first trailer. If he nailed it or Chis Pine Kirked it they would had shown it right away.


    That’s what I’m talking about when I say Star Wars fans cannot be pleased (or more like placated) right now, you can’t even cast an actor they deem not masculine enough, let alone put a woman in the lead. I don’t even know why I’m bothering to respond to this stuff at this point.

    Them trying to replicate the masculinity of a former movie star is an unforced error made by them. There are a zillion actors that could do Star Wars and be fine. Anyone can't replace Kirk, so anyone cannot replace Han Solo. It's that simple.


    You can put a woman in the lead easily. Like it was done with multiple EU products. Just do it and don't preach about it. This a a global brand not a political playground to obscure unpopualr politics.




     
  6. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    5,944
    Likes Received:
    11,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I don't care if they make some of the men stupid, but it was every single damn one was made to be an idiot, much to the determent of the story. How can I take Kylo and Hux seriously as a threat at this point? Do either of them strike you as some wise leader that will be able to out think the Resistance? I don't want to see them un-neutered as you put it. I just want to see them made competent. You're right about Luke. That ship has sailed, and Star Wars is partially forever ruined for me and millions of other fans. They could have made this exact same movie with Luke just trying to regroup on the island as opposed to running away and had him actually show up to the battle as opposed to a force projecting and that would have changed EVERYTHING.

    The majority of hate I'm seeing, at least the people I'm watching, are pretty level headed. It's not disgusting. Jeremy Jahn's video represents the people I'm seeing. But I think there is a unified front. There were so many things that sucked about The Last Jedi that you're right, everyone may have different things. But people are not happy with Disney Star Wars right now and what they are giving us. You yourself aren't watching Solo because you have zero interest in it. Doesn't that say something about the direction Disney is taking Star Wars if they can release a brand new Star Wars movie in the middle of the summer and you don't care? Yes, you liked the Last Jedi, but they made a decision to make Solo which you couldn't care less about? Kathleen Kennedy has had directorial and/or writing issues on all but one movie?
     
  7. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
  8. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Pretty well written article. I'd say there's definitely some veins of truth in there. It's utterly shameful how people have treated poor Tran. She's just an actress who took the role of a lifetime and while I wasn't a big fan of her character, the way people have attacked her is horrifying and very revealing of a nasty strain inside the SW fandom. It's disgusting really. Hate the movie all you want, but that poor girl just gave what she could.

    It's also a good point that SW fandom has really attacked anyone involved with it. They destroyed the poor young kid who was Anakin. They tanked the career of Hayden Christensen. Natalie Portman couldn't stand it. Look at how they've treated Tran and Boyega. He brought up a good point that Lucas probably tired of it too.

    And of course he brought back what I said earlier in this thread: if the problem really is women in high profile roles or too many minorities, then why did Solo do badly? It was about a completely masculine person, maybe the most masculine person in SW. There were only a few roles for women at all in the movie and the big reveal had nothing to do with political correctness.

    I don't know if he's right about what the fandom's problem is, but I do agree it's the fandom's problem.
     
    Weezy likes this.
  9. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
    Regarding Lucas, there was no probably about it, the fans drove him to sell.

    It’s probably the worst fanbase outside of the DC live action films, and that hurts to say as one of them.
     
    therealdeal likes this.
  10. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    That live action DC fanbase is pure horror. Honestly the worst fanbase I've ever seen in my life. The SW fanbase is at least passionate about a worthwhile product. Who in the world could get so passionate about a poorly run franchise that continues to put out awful movies?
     
  11. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    5,944
    Likes Received:
    11,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    What happened with Tran was dreadful. Her character was awful and forced into the movie. But she's an actress and did the best she could with the schlock she was given.

    It's because of The Last Jedi. I feel bad for Ron Howard and the other people working on the film since they are paying for what Rian Johnson did. But as fans, if we're unhappy with the way something is going, the only way we can cause change is by not giving them our money. Since they already took our money for the abysmal Last Jedi, the next batter up gets plucked. Lucasfilm thought the fan outrage was some tiny minority (and that Tran stuff I do believe is a vocal minority that may or may not even watch Star Wars and are just alt-right wackos). If all the people that hated The Last Jedi showed up opening weekend to Solo like nothing happened, Lucasfilm will just keep releasing whatever they want knowing the sheep will file into theaters. I was admittedly not excited for Solo even before The Last Jedi came out. But as a grown man with an embarrassing amount of Star Wars Funko pop dolls, action figures and Star Wars Lego sets, I would have ordered tickets the day they became available.

    And it's not about having women in high profile roles. Maybe to some weirdos,. It's that all the men are made to be dumb, incompetent, treasonous, cowards, whatever else we can do. Why can't there be this balance the Force is always talking about?
     
  12. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
    On a lighter note, this made me laugh extremely hard.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    Without disagreeing with the premise (which I do completely), if that's true then why wouldn't those same people support Solo? It's about a chivalrous, smart, capable, likable male. Tanking that movie just because you didn't like The Last Jedi actually makes no sense at all if the reason you didn't like TLJ is their representation of men. This was the ultimate in male SW movies.

    If you didn't like The Last Jedi because of their representation of men and so you tanked Solo, you just effectively killed off your best chance at seeing a capable male figure in SW. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Again: SW fans don't actually know what they want, they just want to be angry. Like the article Weezy posted said and like I've been saying: here we are getting more Star Wars content than ever and all anyone can do is *****. I'm so sick of it. Let's all just go back to getting 14 books a year that don't match and a movie every 10-15 years. Of course, in 10-15 years what you want from a SW movie and what they give will be completely different again, but who cares right? At least it's an event.
     
    Weezy likes this.
  14. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    5,944
    Likes Received:
    11,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    You and I both know that is an oversimplification of the main issue many people had with Star Wars. The main issue that most people had was the portrayal of Luke, not just because it was not in his character that he ended up like that, but because it made the entire original trilogy seem like an exercise in futility. Not only is it 30 years later with a tiny group of "good guys" that start with the letter "R" fighting against a giant overpowered evil force led by two Dark Force users, they couldn't even bother to change the soldiers (storm troopers) or the fighters (ties). Basically from the end of Revenge of the Sith to where we are now, nothing has really changed outside of a 25 year cease fire that we didn't even get to see.

    And how else can fans of a franchise voice their displeasure with a property? Solo was next in line. Do we all support the heck out of Solo? What does that do? It makes Lucasfilm feel vindicated as it pertains to The Last Jedi and they keep doing their thing. I get the point you're making about Solo possibly being masculine, but the issues people had with the Last Jedi extend FAR beyond a simple case of feminism run rampant. Plot holes, a clumsy story line that failed to connect with the previous installment where you can tell their is no overarching outline, Canto Bight, Leia Poppins...if you want to make a statement towards a company, you have to strike the first chance you get or people will become complacent and the company will just feel even more emboldened.

    I'm not imagining the men thing either. Kathleen Kennedy hired a female as head of the story group. That woman then immediately hired two more females and together they decided who to fill out the story group with.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html

    I have no problem with the first hire, but at one point they essentially had four females trying to figure out how to flesh out a galaxy where the key demographic was male. Balance is what they should be striving for. Not the indignant attitude they are taking that whenever someone questions a decision they are automatically sexist or racist or some other -ist. I'm not racist. I'm married (ie dedicated my life) to a woman of color. I'm also not sexist. My wife has two masters and makes more money than I do. But Lucasfilm and the supporters have been lumping everyone into one "toxic" group.
     
  15. GlickenGoshDebate Tactics

    GlickenGoshDebate Tactics Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Offline
    Everyone?
    Dave Filoni seems fine, the Kotor team was fine, i don't recall the Republic Commando development team being attacked.

    Sorry Lucas was a bad franchise manager who had the decency not to micromanage the whole brand and we have bloody current Disney who manages it like it's ESPN. Of course people are un happy.

    This Han Solo, the Most Masculine person...

    I guess you all never heard of Canderous Ordo.

    You overflood a strong brand like this with political correcntess and you will have a fairly delayed backlash.

    ESPN is in a slow decline, not a quick one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  16. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    So your problem with Luke is what was set up by JJ Abrams and George Lucas, not Rian Johnson who you hate so much. JJ Abrams is the one who wrote all about Luke being on an island away from the threat. JJ Abrams is the one who set up the Resistance vs. The First Order. JJ Abrams is the one who set up Dark Force users. JJ Abrams is the one who nullified the original trilogy by splitting up Han, Leia, and Luke. George Lucas is the one who decided to wait 40 years between 6 and 7 and make the prequels instead which left us devoid of your favorite characters.

    Also, if this is your problem, this has nothing to do with women or representation. This is a plot issue which I can understand and empathize with. It was lazy writing.
    The case of feminism in SW is one that you brought up in this thread. I made the counter with Solo being masculine and still getting no support.

    The point is if you want a company to understand what you're mad at, send a consistent message. Tanking Solo just sends more mixed signals. Now what stories are we going to get? They tried going different and you hated it. They tried going retro (safer) and you hated that too. So now instead we'll get what exactly? All you're doing is casting a wide net against the very thing you say you care about. You're not sending a clear message, just a muddled one that will lead to less Star Wars content and why in the world would a Star Wars fan want less content?

    I'll say this in the best way possible because I still respect you and we've been internet friends a long time, but who cares? Who the hell cares about hiring women in positions to make choices? Are women inherently worse at telling stories? Are women incapable of telling stories about men? Are women incapable of making decisions as good as men do? Is it so challenging to your male ego that a women tell a Star Wars story? Are women not allowed to have role models in Star Wars that aren't traipsing around in gold bikinis?

    Did you know Point Break, Wayne's World, Zero Dark Thirty, The Hurt Locker, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, and American Psycho were all directed by women? Are women incapable of telling a story we can all appreciate and relate to? Their gender means nothing to me. Telling me about your (I'm 100% sure) lovely wife is great, but when you talk about these four women like they're incapable of reaching out to you, it pains me to read it. I'm not calling you a sexist or racist, but doesn't it make you uncomfortable that you're using an argument that they embrace?

    They're trying to reach out to a broader audience than just you and me. We're already in. We're already Star Wars fans, but why can't women have role models in this universe too? Why is that so awful? Why is it so bad that a young girl watching Star Wars feel for Rey what you felt for Luke all those years ago? Why is it bad that Holdo sacrifices herself for the greater good and shows heroism in a time of desperation, making the kind of sacrifice we loved Obi-Wan for? If these movies don't appeal to you anymore, that's a massive let down for everyone, but using this argument that a women lead group can't produce content for us that we can all enjoy just doesn't hold weight for me. Not to mention, they don't write the movies. They're creative control and they'll influence some decisions, but a lot of the problems you talk about within the movies themselves comes from the writers of the movies and the plot they've (in your opinion) failed to develop. That's JJ Abrams. That's Rian Johnson. That's Lawrence Kasdan. That's Michael Ardnt. That's George Lucas.
     
    Weezy likes this.
  17. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    5,944
    Likes Received:
    11,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    OK. Maybe you're misunderstanding my point in posting that article.

    I care because they obviously took that power and shoved their identity politics down our throats. My point in linking the article wasn't to say hiring women is bad, but to show that, if the neutering of the males was in question, it was likely deliberate. A woman can certainly reach out to me. I'm not saying hiring females is bad. I read that article long AFTER The Last Jedi came out and AFTER I came to the conclusions that I did about the weirdness that was going on. Then I read the article and it all clicked. Understand? The article was more of a lightbulb moment of me realizing what was actually happening behind the scenes. I said I have no problem with Rey (other than her ability to use the Force with no training which has nothing to do with her gender, but more to do with consistency with the universe as we know it). Women are just as capable as men at telling great stories. My point in posting the article was if you think I'm getting it from nowhere, that men are being marginalized in the Last Jedi, it may have been set in motion long before.
     
    TIME likes this.
  18. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    I appreciate the clarification and again, as always, I hope there's no hard feelings. You know I respect you as a person, I just don't like this identity politics talk.

    I simply don't agree with men being neutered at all. Kylo Ren is the leader of the First Order. Poe Dameron is now the leader of the Resistance. Finn killed Phasma, one of the leaders of the First Order (and a woman). Who in the galaxy has done anything as impressive or difficult in the Force as Luke? Luke also whooped Rey's *** with a windshield wiper until she pulled a lightsaber on him. Snoke was one of the most powerful Force users we've ever seen and a male.

    Neutered men is a state of mind. If you want to find neutered men in the movie, I guess you can. But maybe the real reason anyone thinks that is because there were a number of strong female roles which, to me, is great. Females should be just as prominent as males.

    And if you want to hunt down whatever gender politics you want, the women were just as incompetent as the men. Like I've said before: Rey's basic arch in this movie is a teenager chasing after a boy she likes regardless of her responsibilities. That's not a strong female role model. Holdo lets how many dozens die before sacrificing herself? Leia is incapacitated immediately and put into a coma. What a terrible role. Rose failed to complete her mission to help Finn and again ultimately becomes a woman who sacrifices herself for some boy she just met and idolizes. These are all terrible role models for women. They glorify sacrificing your personality and strength for a boy while showing women as incompetent leaders and weak individuals.

    You see, you can find whatever gender politics you want in this movie.
     
    TIME and Weezy like this.
  19. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    29,804
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Anaheim
    Offline
    I don’t know what to make of this, it sounds extremely weird. I guess it could have been good, but it feels like more unnecessary demystifying of the Force, like Lucas not knowing when to self-edit.

     
    therealdeal likes this.
  20. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    27,415
    Likes Received:
    56,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Offline
    The Whills is something that the focus group kept although they haven't had any sort of specifics about it. Wasn't the old man at the start of Episode 7 a monk of the Whills or something?
     

Share This Page