President Trump

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Philosophy' started by TIME, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    By the way, this wasn't a quote from Trump. It was Obama. I'm sure the outcry was similar to crickets.
     
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  2. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    Not going to lie, I read that quote and thought it sounded like a Trump opinion, but found it WAY too eloquent to be The Donald himself.
     
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  3. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    At what point is it no longer "selfish" though? How much should the U.S. bend to cater to the demands of other countries. It’s really easy to tell America what they should be doing and that they are selfish from another country. Is Trump inciting people? Yes. Is the left wing media twisting what he says at times to incite people as well? Absolutely. Are left wing politicians inciting people by misleading Americans? Yep. Stop making it seem like Trump is the only piece of s*** working in American politics today. The media and political system is a rancid cesspool.

    I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary so I feel I can look at him with a somewhat unbiased eye. He has done good for the economy. He has helped employment rates among all races, even the ones he "incites" problems with. He's also an embarrassment with many of the things he says and does. He can say things that seem like a wink-wink to the alt-right.
     
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  4. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers Starter -

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    @therealdeal

    But I wasn't talking about Trump politics, domestic or otherwise, or even him as a person. That was tangential to my gripe.

    I asked @John3:16, whom I deeply respect, if the recent (last year) events made him abandon or reconsider his "selfish" (it was in jest, but still apt description of his point of view, as was confirmed later on) approach to Trump presidency.

    I find it mind-boggling that people who supported Trump continue to do so in the face of so much abhorrent things that transpired, all for the price of somewhat improvement economy (which has been surging starting way deep into Obama's presidency, as economies wont to do after a downfall... so correlation vs. causation is there, especially if you start looking at specifics, like tariffs; which by all accounts are hurting the industries).

    My basic question, it seems, boils down to -- "What has to happen for you to say: this is too much"?

    John answered that pretty clearly. So... my mind is still boggled.
     
  5. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    I posted this Sep 14. Worth reposting.

    The rate of GDP growth was decelerating in Obama's last year. It went from 2.3% in Q2, to 1.9% in Q3 to 1.8% in Q4 of 2016. Under Trump, GDP growth has averaged 2.9%. It was 4.2% last quarter and might be higher in the current one. The stock market also was stuck in neutral the year before the November 2016 elections. The Dow is up by some 45% since then. Real median family income didn't budge from August 2015 to November 2016, according to Sentier Research. It's up more than 4% since Trump came into office. Wages are on the upswing. In Obama's last year, unemployment rate remained basically unchanged β€” it was 4.9% in Jan 2016, and 4.8% when Trump took office in Jan. 2017. Now it's down to 3.9% We could go on. Meanwhile, the same reporters now patting Obama on the back for today's strong economy were reporting in late 2016 about how β€” as The New York Times put it β€” "the underlying reality of low growth will haunt whoever wins the White House."

    Love to discuss if you have other facts that show he's not responsible.
     
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  6. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers Starter -

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    This is correlation, until proven otherwise. Which can't really be done, if I remember my economics 101.

    Or worse, it is causation, but of the bad kind. For example, incredible corp tax cuts may have directly impacted Dow (most likely).

    Did that have an impact on actual hoseholds? Show those numbers, then show the trend, then show the impact. How about production?

    Judging economical impact based on such a macro measurements is really not a great idea.

    Or are you a subscriber of trickle down economics theory?

    We can probably dive into the rest of your numbers, but I don't care enough.

    Especially since it has nothing to do with my point, which you addressed pretty unequivocally.

    I feel bad for society.
     
  7. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers Starter -

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    Hitler was good for economy, for a period, as well. In fact, his emergence was a direct result of post-WWI economic and national crisis in Germany, brought upon themselves by their own actions. John, you can disregard all of this, as your position has been made clear.

    For all the rest, to drive my point across... once more, as it, for some reason, gets twisted into a discussion whether or not Trump is good for economy and such.

    Setup:

    1. You are a supporter of a candidate named Bill
    2. Candidate Bill wins and becomes the supreme leader
    3. Under his rule you, and many others like you, flourish
    4. Supreme leader also does a lot of other stuff, that doesn't impact you directly; ethically/morally/objectively bad

    Question:

    Where do you draw the line, beyond which you regret supporting Bill:

    1. Bill disrespects nearly everyone who opposes him in any way, down to name calling and smear campaigns
    2. Bill says demeaning stuff about women and is generally proven to be misogynistic human being
    3. Bill makes fun of veterans, disabled, "not normal" and other groups
    4. Bill refuses to condemn or refer to racist groups and acts
    5. <insert your criteria>

    Clarification:

    Whether or not Bill actually committed all these acts have no bearing on your answer. The moral decision is detached from them. Much like "if my wife cheated on me, I would probably leave her" claim isn't conditional on her actually committing the act.

    -------------------------------
    For me...

    I belong to a relatively well-off socioeconomic group. I have a profession that will probably remain relevant, as long as I don't stagnate in my knowledge, for the next 10 - 15 years, easily. I am handsomely paid for that. By many accounts our current prime minister contributed, in much the same manner, to the booming economy, while doing corporate tax cuts, getting breaks to 0.1%-ers and more. I, generally, benefit from some of these, and really suffer from others (pensions being a farce, due to various regulations that eventually lead to the government bonds devaluation and such...).

    But I would NEVER vote for him because he sides with extreme religious nationalists (actual part of his coalition) that do not believe in:

    1. gay or even non-religious marriage (and they make money off of marriage contracts and such)
    2. do not believe in secular anything: marriage, burial, lifestyle

    and because the corruption is amazingly apparent and unapologetic.

    There... that's my line in the sand. At lease one of them.
     
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  8. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Again, I think it's more nuanced than you're giving it credit for.

    I think you condemn the bad things he does, but that doesn't mean you overlook the positive.

    I've said repeatedly: I'm not a Trump supporter. I don't like Trump. I also can no longer argue certain results though. You cannot continue to downplay the economic turnaround which is what the majority of the people you're addressing in this thread care about. We're really most Libertarians which skew roughly Liberal on social issues and Conservative on fiscal issues. For us (well for me anyway), I've grown to the point where the economy is my #1 concern. Social issues for me take a backseat. That doesn't mean I find what he does acceptable behavior, but I will look past them for now while things go well economically.

    The Obama Administration spent 8 years blaming a down economy on Bush and his Administration. Now he gets to take credit for the uptick two years after he left office? Seems convenient and at the very least a spin to discredit one party and bolster another. The Republicans would do the same, but I will give credit where I believe it's due.

    If you're asking what it would take so that I don't credit Trump with anything and simply condemn him outright no matter what, I'm not sure. I'd know it when I saw it. It's not a sex scandal to me, Bill Clinton and John F. Kennedy have proven that the American people don't care about a promiscuous President. I do find it funny that there's a narrative Bill Clinton is a good guy when he abused his power as the President to take advantage of a bunch of women.

    I will repeat though: I didn't vote for Trump. So if you're asking what it would take for me to change my vote or to vote him out, I don't know. I didn't vote him in the first time around. I will say our system is built on a broken foundation anyway. I'd be in favor of removing literally all existing Senators from their positions and starting over.
     
  9. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    What would it take for me to completely condemn a president? When he orders the murder of a 16 year old American citizen with no charges, Miranda Rights, conviction or sentencing.

    But I feel alone in this belief because others still support Obama.
     
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  10. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    And Congressmen/women. Removing Senators doesn't remove senile morons like Nancy Pelosi.
     
  11. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Congressmen is what I meant, I misspoke. Tear that system down and institute term limits on all elected offices. No private funding of campaigns either.
     
  12. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

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    I'm assuming he means "brush and bushes" instead of forests.

    What people outside of SoCal don't understand is all of the hills of Southern California are basically just huge mounds of dirt. If you clear all the brush and bushes, there is nothing holding the dirt back when the rains come. Without the brush, massive mudslides occur. This happened in the Santa Barbara area last year. Soon after the fires devastated the area, months later, mudslides happened when the rains came without any vegetation to hold the dirt in place.

    That's why fire departments only recommend clearing brush close to homes and structures. Not the entire hillside.
     
  13. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    ^^ when I saw that posted by someone I thought the tweet was fake.

    Cringe worthy.
     
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  14. puffyusaf#2

    puffyusaf#2 - Lakers 6th Man -

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    I pop into this thread every once in awhile to see who is really still defending the President. I do not knock anyone for what they believe or support. We all have our history that determines what matters to each of us. That being said, after his latest statements about California I am honestly shocked anyone can believe the President is about the people. As a Cali boy (like a lot here I am sure) I'm furious thinking that the President took this approach while people are dying, losing their homes and animals and have no idea when they will get back. I give a damn about politics. I care that the appointed officials give a damn about the people. Another disappointing moment in the Presidents run.

    Simple rant over.
     
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  15. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    This isn't to stand up for Trump. Just a comment about politicians in general. Very few of them actually care about the people they represent as should be evident by the decisions they make. Trump is just the first one that makes it painfully obvious he doesn't give two s***s about us. :D :cry:
     
  16. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers Starter -

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    But the economy you guys...
     
  17. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    You joke about it, as if we shouldn't care. I do. We are taxed to death and IMO, the liberals want to tax us even more. As a contractor, I pay taxes at the end of the year. I wish everyone in America paid taxes at the end of the year so they could truly see what they are paying.

    Trump gave us tax breaks. Unemployment is virtually zero (2 - 4% simply don't want to work and that's fine). Welfare is down. America first!

    so yeah, the ECONOMY!!!! Thank you President Trump. Sorry his tweets offend. They are cringe worthy and rude and vulgar and immature. But they don't hurt my feelings. Paying more or seeing people unemployed does hurt my feelings.

    2 more years until 4 more years!
     
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  18. puffyusaf#2

    puffyusaf#2 - Lakers 6th Man -

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    I get that. Politicians have to care about their bottom line and those that voted for them. Every side is tilted and tainted one way or the other. I don't have to agree with the policies of those in office. I respect that they were legally voted into office. I want them to represent their values and if I disagree there are avenues for me to change that. As I watch the President it is obvious that his concern is strictly for one specific part of America. Sadly, he is doing a shell game and people are celebrating the "successes" of some of his so-called policies. In the end, I wouldn't want him to fail because I live in this country. In reality, all I see is a select few who will be happy with what he has done to out country when it is all said and done. That is tragic. Anyway, we shall see what he does next.
     
  19. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers Starter -

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    Oh, John, I am dead serious.

    Don't take it the wrong way, but there are plenty of instances in history where someone was vulgar and brazen and rude...for some, but he served their purpose, while being an awful proposition for many many others.

    You can probably name those... 1933 in Germany seems like a good year to refer to. As is 1924 in Russia.

    Also... I pay taxes (including state and such) that amount to nearly 40% of my paycheck, before 401K and such. So... LOL @ yours.
     
  20. John3:16

    John3:16 Moderator Staff Member

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    What do I pay? % and $ total???

    Oh, you don't know? Save the "LOL @ yours."
     

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